First, I just finished a series on the end times that deals with everything from dispensationalism to the rapture. Click here to read more.
Second, have you been "left behind" by my switch to FreeThought Blogs? Make sure to check out my new blog here, and to add it to your reader if you're a regular.
I'm still reading, I just don't feel comfortable commenting over there considering the vitriol some folks in that area feel toward theists. It doesn't bother me if people don't believe. I have my paradigm, they have theirs. My husband, if pressed, is likely an atheist. Big fat hairy deal, yanno?
But to some folks apparently it is. I'm still enjoying what you have to say, though -- you are, as always, awesome :)
I understand your terpredation. There's been a good amount of discussion about target audiences and the like (Natalie's blog over there, for example). For what it's worth many of us, myself included, are and will continue to help Libby police her board. We can't ban, but we can speak up when needed.
I comment over there as Besomyka, and I hope y'all do offer your perspective eventually.
I also understand your problem; even when there isn't any vitriol, the sheer weight of numbers can make posting intimidating if one thinks it will result in tons of people disagreeing - even if each individual person is perfectly civil and cogent. When I'm in that situation I find it helpful to think hard on what I want to get across and what points I want to argue, and ignore responses that aren't specifically in that focus, and I don't feel bad about cutting short a conversation if it isn't accomplishing anything for me.
Personally I did like the makeup of the commentariat here, faith and opinion-wise, and that has changed a lot with the move. If you and other religious or non-left-wing commenters changed your mind and chose to comment on the FtB blog I for one would really appreciate your contribution. (but I can't guarantee I wouldn't disagree with specific comments or voice said disagreements, so there's the rub ^^)
Libby Anne, I am a Christian and not an agnostic, but I have really enjoyed reading your well-written and insightful blog. A few months after my husband died, I attended a patriarchial home church without any understanding of their strange beliefs. Your blog has helped me sort out the confusion I felt.
But after reading some militant atheistic blogs in which all Christians are depicted as idiots, I was reluctant to switch over to your new blog. I dislike all the name calling that advocates on all sides of religious debates indulge in. I see now that your new blog is as good as ever, but like the reader above I doubt I will comment on your new blog.
Amanda and Anonymous - Each blogger on FreeThought Blogs has complete control over his or her blog, and can write whatever comments policy, etc, that he or she wants. No one at FreeThought Blogs dictates my content.
If you look at FtB my comments policy, you'll see that I don't tolerate name calling and ask that discussion in the comments be civil. Sure, you will likely find people in the comments disagreeing with you there, but there was already a diversity of commenters here anyway, and again, I don't tolerate meanness or rudeness.
Anyway, you don't have to comment if you don't like, I'm just trying to assure you that you won't encounter simple vitriol or hate if you do. Several of my regular religious commenters have continued to comment, and it hasn't been a problem.
I can testify to the truth of this, Amanda and Anonymous. I don't quite know where my beliefs fall anymore on the spectrum of atheist-agnostic-theist, but I don't identify as an atheist and I identify very strongly as Jewish and make no secret of it. I had my concerns about the transition myself since, like you, I also have no use for the "name calling that advocates on all sides of the religious debate indulge in." Believe me! But, so far, I have happily found it to be absent. The commenters there are very opinionated, but very respectful and I've never felt uncomfortable. I've seen a few random comments that seem to just be there to stir up trouble, but they've been pretty much ignored. I'd say everybody across the ideological spectrum seems pretty united in their desire for civil discussion and I hope you guys comment. There are definitely some commenters from this blog that I miss over at the new one! That's the only downside.
During my time of reading the blog here as well as other feminists blogs and those who people who are raised in 'christian' families, one of the biggest themes I see coming out of it is patriarchy and it comes from those who tend to label themselves as feminists.
Having come out of a women's studies class in college last semester my radar is a bit more focused on this subject just to relate what I learned to real world experience.
I have had to ask myself on the 'christian patriarchy' stuff, is it really a cultic type of experience that you and others similiar to you have experience and you are breaking out of it because it is unbalanced and unhealthy or is it because those women who have become feminists have sought to label their upbringing or their church as some kind of wrong because they suddenly realize that men 'dominate' the church hierarchy, if that makes sense?
I became a christian when I was 20. Now 42 and I have visited a number of different churches along the way and fellowshipped with the most conservative to the most liberal of people. While there was some abuse in the more conservative churches when it came to being very fundamental in silly things such as women should wear long dresses and no jeans in the church, I don't ever recall hearing or seeing abuse of patriarchy within the church or families. Unless it was a hidden thing.
When I read these stories it gives me the impression that there is so much of this stuff going on out there and that the christian church and beliefs are really bad and that feminists are out to make the wrong right.
These are some of my thoughts as I read these stories. I don't know how much of my perception is a bit off or how much is true but this is what I perceive. Yet I do see a common theme in it all it seems. Fundamentally conservative with a slice of evangelical in there to boot.
Side not, I recently leaned in a week or 2 there is a conference in town for a day called the 'Rock Conference' dealing with the youth from all the church. It is dealing with purity and teaching teenagers to keep themselves until marriage. I applaud this effort yet this is all I know of the conference.
Say JW, you are one of the commenters with a different point of view I was hoping to see on FTB after the move, did I miss you ? Or did you see nothing you cared to comment on up to now ? Or like others, are you apprehensive about commenting ? I can't blame you in the last case, you'd probably get strenuously disagreed with. But you do strike me as someone it would be interesting to have a conversation on feminism with, because you don't agree with a lot of it but having taken a course you have more actual knowledge on the subject than most anti-feminists... and, ok, I confess, you sound convincible. I have low motives, I admit. :p
I think one of the reasons I have a different point of view is partially because of where Libby Anne is coming from. I also partially follow No Longer Quivering as well and Libby Anne comes from this stuff. It is easy to see why feminism works so well in relation to it because it really makes the husband out to be one who is abusive, unfair, a religious nutcase and so forth because of the fundamentalist views of the nature of the quiverful thing. Yet, I see this as labeling the entire 'culture' of Christendom and it creates a false sense of truth, IMO.
If I were an outside and a basic athiest or agnostic I would conclude that Christianity is full of nutcases and to totally stay away from them becasue of the information that I read and that is totally false. Even for me, I can tell anyone that I display none of these attributes but I don't have kids either. Yet, my wife always encourages me to take to lead in many things but I also get her opinion on matters before I do anything unless I see something that will benefit us greatly.
On, FTB, I have glanced there a few times and it is like going into a hornets nest for me. For me to go there and get something out of it I would have to go to those who are similiar to Libby Anne yet that 'lifestyle' is skewed because I don't see that it demonstrates what Christian faith is. I see it much like christian radio. It gives the appearance of Godliness but it is really a smokescreen and then it produces individuals who are repulsed.
I have to say that since taking this women's studies class, which is probably the best knowledge based class I have had, it has opened up my horizons to the world of women's issues. It causes me to question a number of things that conservaties appear to be against but also causes me to question the strategies of feminists as well. I follow a few feminists on twitter and let me say that sometimes I agree with what I read and other times I am incensed at what I read yet I stay with it to keep my self with the 'understanding' of what is going on within the mind of more liberalized women and why.
I can also say that I don't like confrontational conversations with 'I am right you are wrong' type of stuff. It only gets into shouting matches. I prefer question and answers and this is where I stand on issue and this is why. This leaves the door open to disagreement without losing a friend over it.
Hi JW ! I don't think you should make comments on Libby Anne's FTB blog; it's your choice. I was just saying that were you to do that, I personally would appreciate it. I can't even guarantee others would feel the same really :p
As for NLQ and stories like Libby Anne's, I think what they would respond is that they're not saying ALL Christians, or even all fundamentalist Christians work like that. If somebody gets that impression from reading their blogs I'd say it's the reader's fault for drawing conclusions from such a small sample, not theirs for giving their perspective. The problem with the systems they lived with isn't so much the abuse, but the potential for abuse and how abuse is dealt with.
I think maybe the best expression of this I remember seeing was reading Uncle Tom's Cabin, where in the end the author says that it isn't about some masters being bad (in which case you could say "but some masters are good !") - it's about the system, and how the very way it's set up makes harm likely to happen and keeps that harm from being mitigated when it does.
Caravelle, why do you intrigue me? lol Your words do intrigue me. I wouldn't mind posting comments on FTB with Libby's blog but at the moment much of what she is posting is about parenting and everyone has an opinion on it. That is definately out of my league. Why do you think I shouldn't make comments on her FTB blog?
I have alot of sympathy for these folks who grew up in this quiverfull type of groups. So much hurt and angst can develop as a result of being very fundamental with them. I have taken these topics to a couple of christian discussion board to get input on them. Some people share my opinions and others are very fundamentalistic. It reminds me of the paper I wrote for my women's studies class. i sent it to Libby to read and tell me what she though but she told me she is a very busy person-translation 'I have no time for this'. Might sound harsh but that is the reality of her words. My paper was feminism and fundamentalism. Took 4 revisions for me to get it 'right'.
One last thing, you mentioned 'it's the readers fault for drawing conclusions for such a small sample....' hmmm, this means that readers much use major criticial thinking when reading Libby and others posts to sort what of their thoughts encompass the whole vs the part. Make sense? I think that is probably not practiced alot. In my Libby's posting the % of those thinking her experience is probably that of most conservative christian homes is what? I would say high-yet I am only guessing judging by the number of affirmative posts she gets. It is challenge to not lump what she says with everyone vs just a few people. Happens in politics so much that it makes me , personally, sick.
Why do you think I shouldn't make comments on her FTB blog? lol, I don't think you shouldn't either ! I don't think it's a "should" question basically. Everyone is entitled to comment or not comment where they like IMO.
Might sound harsh but that is the reality of her words. Doesn't really sound harsh to me, we all have real lives and Libby Anne is a prolific blogger and stay-at-home mother of many and who knows what else; I have no problem thinking she'd be busy. This tickles me because I know there are feminist theories on time, and the social value given to women's time vs men's time in particular. Did they talk about any of that in your class ? Maybe you should tell to your teacher about this, it might be funny.
hmmm, this means that readers much use major criticial thinking when reading Libby and others posts to sort what of their thoughts encompass the whole vs the part. Well... yeah. I think all readers should always use critical thinking when reading anything ever. Dunno about "major", why use more critical thinking in one case than another ? By "critical thinking" I don't mean "automatic disbelief", I just mean keeping one's level of certainty for any belief consistent with how good one's reasons for believing are.
As for what percentage of conservative Christian homes match Libby Anne's story I don't think you can tell at all from the comments she an other gets. We can tell the absolute numbers are significant, but to get an idea of percentages you'd need some kind of sampling heuristic.
I find that once we (still Christian women) take a stand for gender equality as disciples of Jesus (neither male nor female, your sons and daughters will prophecy, etc.) that automatically pits us against man-rule and subordination of women. We are then LABELLED "feminist', whether we take it on for ourselves or not.
Then, for me anyway, once having been labelled as an evil liberal feminist, I started reading more about it and am now proud to wear the label (minus the word "evil" because it is misapplied as an adjective for liberal and/or feminist).
1st paragraph, it only pits you against man-rule if you think you are being left out as a woman. It is my opinion that liberal thinking has helped this thinking as a result of ultra conserative thinking? It reminds me of the paper I wrote for my women's studies class about Feminism and Fundamentalism. Prof. said it was one of the best he has read (I assume in the class of 20 people). One of the things I mentioned is the role of the male an female and how it has been so distorted.
'evil liberal feminist'- what exactly does feminist mean to you? Are you married? How does feminism relate to your marriage and your husband as you understand it?
I think politics also plays the feminist thing up as well creating a shouting match between liberals and conservatives and it tends to cloud the reality of what feminism is and isn't. On the conservative side it creates an atmosphere that makes feminists out to be man haters and out for their own self interests and breaking what the fundamentalists believe is taught from the bible in regards to marriage. The more ultra conservative one gets the more this is seen. On the flip side the liberal mindset is all about 'freedom' to do . You can have sex all you want and have abortions- it's your body. Have multiple sex partners if you want. Then there is also the part about being athiest or agnostic which tends to play a big role in it as well but it is really all a game of politics in the end, isn't it?
Finally, just as a side note to this if it applies at all- a few weeks ago I was following a feminist on twitter and she mentioned Elizabeth Taylor being a great role model for women. I told her that she is not, especially for someone who has been married some 8 times or more? That is not a role model for women. She went on to say that she is a role model because of the causes she takes up. This is A difference between liberal thought and conservative thought. Conservative thought starts in the home and branches out whereas liberal thoughts seems to stay outside of the home seeks to change everything in the name of progressive thought and 'freedom'. Sometimes this is good and other times it isn't so good. Same, with conersatives, sometimes it is good and other times it isn't so good.
I don't think it's true that the liberal pov is about "freedom". I mean, once you have two people in a room one or both won't be free to do everything anymore, and every political philosophy is about "freedom" and what one is free and not free to do at any time.
I'd say it's about harm. Does something harm others ? Then you shouldn't be free to do it. Does it harm nobody ? Then you should be free to do it. Intermediate cases ? Ehh, liberal views differ. So liberals would say you can have all the sex you want - but only if it's consensual. So having sex outside marriage with your spouse's blessing ? A-OK. Nagging your spouse into having sex when they don't want to ? Not cool.
I don't know if I agree about the home/outside dichotomy either; issues like minimal education requirements and laws against spousal or child abuse are absolutely about the home and it's things liberals tend to be for, while conservatives are more for people's freedom to run their families as they please. I'd say liberals are less concerned about what people do in their own homes, but mostly because what people do in their own homes is less likely to hurt others by definition.
I'm still reading, I just don't feel comfortable commenting over there considering the vitriol some folks in that area feel toward theists. It doesn't bother me if people don't believe. I have my paradigm, they have theirs. My husband, if pressed, is likely an atheist. Big fat hairy deal, yanno?
ReplyDeleteBut to some folks apparently it is. I'm still enjoying what you have to say, though -- you are, as always, awesome :)
I understand your terpredation. There's been a good amount of discussion about target audiences and the like (Natalie's blog over there, for example). For what it's worth many of us, myself included, are and will continue to help Libby police her board. We can't ban, but we can speak up when needed.
DeleteI comment over there as Besomyka, and I hope y'all do offer your perspective eventually.
I also understand your problem; even when there isn't any vitriol, the sheer weight of numbers can make posting intimidating if one thinks it will result in tons of people disagreeing - even if each individual person is perfectly civil and cogent. When I'm in that situation I find it helpful to think hard on what I want to get across and what points I want to argue, and ignore responses that aren't specifically in that focus, and I don't feel bad about cutting short a conversation if it isn't accomplishing anything for me.
DeletePersonally I did like the makeup of the commentariat here, faith and opinion-wise, and that has changed a lot with the move. If you and other religious or non-left-wing commenters changed your mind and chose to comment on the FtB blog I for one would really appreciate your contribution. (but I can't guarantee I wouldn't disagree with specific comments or voice said disagreements, so there's the rub ^^)
Libby Anne,
ReplyDeleteI am a Christian and not an agnostic, but I have really enjoyed reading your well-written and insightful blog. A few months after my husband died, I attended a patriarchial home church without any understanding of their strange beliefs. Your blog has helped me sort out the confusion I felt.
But after reading some militant atheistic blogs in which all Christians are depicted as idiots, I was reluctant to switch over to your new blog. I dislike all the name calling that advocates on all sides of religious debates indulge in. I see now that your new blog is as good as ever, but like the reader above I doubt I will comment on your new blog.
Amanda and Anonymous - Each blogger on FreeThought Blogs has complete control over his or her blog, and can write whatever comments policy, etc, that he or she wants. No one at FreeThought Blogs dictates my content.
ReplyDeleteIf you look at FtB my comments policy, you'll see that I don't tolerate name calling and ask that discussion in the comments be civil. Sure, you will likely find people in the comments disagreeing with you there, but there was already a diversity of commenters here anyway, and again, I don't tolerate meanness or rudeness.
Anyway, you don't have to comment if you don't like, I'm just trying to assure you that you won't encounter simple vitriol or hate if you do. Several of my regular religious commenters have continued to comment, and it hasn't been a problem.
I can testify to the truth of this, Amanda and Anonymous. I don't quite know where my beliefs fall anymore on the spectrum of atheist-agnostic-theist, but I don't identify as an atheist and I identify very strongly as Jewish and make no secret of it. I had my concerns about the transition myself since, like you, I also have no use for the "name calling that advocates on all sides of the religious debate indulge in." Believe me! But, so far, I have happily found it to be absent. The commenters there are very opinionated, but very respectful and I've never felt uncomfortable. I've seen a few random comments that seem to just be there to stir up trouble, but they've been pretty much ignored. I'd say everybody across the ideological spectrum seems pretty united in their desire for civil discussion and I hope you guys comment. There are definitely some commenters from this blog that I miss over at the new one! That's the only downside.
DeleteDuring my time of reading the blog here as well as other feminists blogs and those who people who are raised in 'christian' families, one of the biggest themes I see coming out of it is patriarchy and it comes from those who tend to label themselves as feminists.
ReplyDeleteHaving come out of a women's studies class in college last semester my radar is a bit more focused on this subject just to relate what I learned to real world experience.
I have had to ask myself on the 'christian patriarchy' stuff, is it really a cultic type of experience that you and others similiar to you have experience and you are breaking out of it because it is unbalanced and unhealthy or is it because those women who have become feminists have sought to label their upbringing or their church as some kind of wrong because they suddenly realize that men 'dominate' the church hierarchy, if that makes sense?
I became a christian when I was 20. Now 42 and I have visited a number of different churches along the way and fellowshipped with the most conservative to the most liberal of people. While there was some abuse in the more conservative churches when it came to being very fundamental in silly things such as women should wear long dresses and no jeans in the church, I don't ever recall hearing or seeing abuse of patriarchy within the church or families. Unless it was a hidden thing.
When I read these stories it gives me the impression that there is so much of this stuff going on out there and that the christian church and beliefs are really bad and that feminists are out to make the wrong right.
These are some of my thoughts as I read these stories. I don't know how much of my perception is a bit off or how much is true but this is what I perceive. Yet I do see a common theme in it all it seems. Fundamentally conservative with a slice of evangelical in there to boot.
Side not, I recently leaned in a week or 2 there is a conference in town for a day called the 'Rock Conference' dealing with the youth from all the church. It is dealing with purity and teaching teenagers to keep themselves until marriage. I applaud this effort yet this is all I know of the conference.
JW
Say JW, you are one of the commenters with a different point of view I was hoping to see on FTB after the move, did I miss you ? Or did you see nothing you cared to comment on up to now ? Or like others, are you apprehensive about commenting ? I can't blame you in the last case, you'd probably get strenuously disagreed with. But you do strike me as someone it would be interesting to have a conversation on feminism with, because you don't agree with a lot of it but having taken a course you have more actual knowledge on the subject than most anti-feminists... and, ok, I confess, you sound convincible. I have low motives, I admit. :p
DeleteI think one of the reasons I have a different point of view is partially because of where Libby Anne is coming from. I also partially follow No Longer Quivering as well and Libby Anne comes from this stuff. It is easy to see why feminism works so well in relation to it because it really makes the husband out to be one who is abusive, unfair, a religious nutcase and so forth because of the fundamentalist views of the nature of the quiverful thing. Yet, I see this as labeling the entire 'culture' of Christendom and it creates a false sense of truth, IMO.
DeleteIf I were an outside and a basic athiest or agnostic I would conclude that Christianity is full of nutcases and to totally stay away from them becasue of the information that I read and that is totally false. Even for me, I can tell anyone that I display none of these attributes but I don't have kids either. Yet, my wife always encourages me to take to lead in many things but I also get her opinion on matters before I do anything unless I see something that will benefit us greatly.
On, FTB, I have glanced there a few times and it is like going into a hornets nest for me. For me to go there and get something out of it I would have to go to those who are similiar to Libby Anne yet that 'lifestyle' is skewed because I don't see that it demonstrates what Christian faith is. I see it much like christian radio. It gives the appearance of Godliness but it is really a smokescreen and then it produces individuals who are repulsed.
I have to say that since taking this women's studies class, which is probably the best knowledge based class I have had, it has opened up my horizons to the world of women's issues. It causes me to question a number of things that conservaties appear to be against but also causes me to question the strategies of feminists as well. I follow a few feminists on twitter and let me say that sometimes I agree with what I read and other times I am incensed at what I read yet I stay with it to keep my self with the 'understanding' of what is going on within the mind of more liberalized women and why.
I can also say that I don't like confrontational conversations with 'I am right you are wrong' type of stuff. It only gets into shouting matches. I prefer question and answers and this is where I stand on issue and this is why. This leaves the door open to disagreement without losing a friend over it.
Gosh I am long winded.
Should I make comments on FTB?
JW
Hi JW !
DeleteI don't think you should make comments on Libby Anne's FTB blog; it's your choice. I was just saying that were you to do that, I personally would appreciate it. I can't even guarantee others would feel the same really :p
As for NLQ and stories like Libby Anne's, I think what they would respond is that they're not saying ALL Christians, or even all fundamentalist Christians work like that. If somebody gets that impression from reading their blogs I'd say it's the reader's fault for drawing conclusions from such a small sample, not theirs for giving their perspective. The problem with the systems they lived with isn't so much the abuse, but the potential for abuse and how abuse is dealt with.
I think maybe the best expression of this I remember seeing was reading Uncle Tom's Cabin, where in the end the author says that it isn't about some masters being bad (in which case you could say "but some masters are good !") - it's about the system, and how the very way it's set up makes harm likely to happen and keeps that harm from being mitigated when it does.
Caravelle, why do you intrigue me? lol Your words do intrigue me. I wouldn't mind posting comments on FTB with Libby's blog but at the moment much of what she is posting is about parenting and everyone has an opinion on it. That is definately out of my league. Why do you think I shouldn't make comments on her FTB blog?
DeleteI have alot of sympathy for these folks who grew up in this quiverfull type of groups. So much hurt and angst can develop as a result of being very fundamental with them. I have taken these topics to a couple of christian discussion board to get input on them. Some people share my opinions and others are very fundamentalistic. It reminds me of the paper I wrote for my women's studies class. i sent it to Libby to read and tell me what she though but she told me she is a very busy person-translation 'I have no time for this'. Might sound harsh but that is the reality of her words. My paper was feminism and fundamentalism. Took 4 revisions for me to get it 'right'.
One last thing, you mentioned 'it's the readers fault for drawing conclusions for such a small sample....' hmmm, this means that readers much use major criticial thinking when reading Libby and others posts to sort what of their thoughts encompass the whole vs the part. Make sense? I think that is probably not practiced alot. In my Libby's posting the % of those thinking her experience is probably that of most conservative christian homes is what? I would say high-yet I am only guessing judging by the number of affirmative posts she gets. It is challenge to not lump what she says with everyone vs just a few people. Happens in politics so much that it makes me , personally, sick.
long winded-gosh do I ramble? lol
JW
lol Your words do intrigue me.
DeleteWhy thanks :)
Why do you think I shouldn't make comments on her FTB blog?
lol, I don't think you shouldn't either ! I don't think it's a "should" question basically. Everyone is entitled to comment or not comment where they like IMO.
Might sound harsh but that is the reality of her words.
Doesn't really sound harsh to me, we all have real lives and Libby Anne is a prolific blogger and stay-at-home mother of many and who knows what else; I have no problem thinking she'd be busy.
This tickles me because I know there are feminist theories on time, and the social value given to women's time vs men's time in particular. Did they talk about any of that in your class ? Maybe you should tell to your teacher about this, it might be funny.
hmmm, this means that readers much use major criticial thinking when reading Libby and others posts to sort what of their thoughts encompass the whole vs the part.
Well... yeah. I think all readers should always use critical thinking when reading anything ever. Dunno about "major", why use more critical thinking in one case than another ? By "critical thinking" I don't mean "automatic disbelief", I just mean keeping one's level of certainty for any belief consistent with how good one's reasons for believing are.
As for what percentage of conservative Christian homes match Libby Anne's story I don't think you can tell at all from the comments she an other gets. We can tell the absolute numbers are significant, but to get an idea of percentages you'd need some kind of sampling heuristic.
I enjoy your blog very much. My only problem with the new site is that the adverts can be a bit irritating.
ReplyDeleteJW,
ReplyDeleteI find that once we (still Christian women) take a stand for gender equality as disciples of Jesus (neither male nor female, your sons and daughters will prophecy, etc.) that automatically pits us against man-rule and subordination of women. We are then LABELLED "feminist', whether we take it on for ourselves or not.
Then, for me anyway, once having been labelled as an evil liberal feminist, I started reading more about it and am now proud to wear the label (minus the word "evil" because it is misapplied as an adjective for liberal and/or feminist).
1st paragraph, it only pits you against man-rule if you think you are being left out as a woman. It is my opinion that liberal thinking has helped this thinking as a result of ultra conserative thinking? It reminds me of the paper I wrote for my women's studies class about Feminism and Fundamentalism. Prof. said it was one of the best he has read (I assume in the class of 20 people). One of the things I mentioned is the role of the male an female and how it has been so distorted.
Delete'evil liberal feminist'- what exactly does feminist mean to you? Are you married? How does feminism relate to your marriage and your husband as you understand it?
I think politics also plays the feminist thing up as well creating a shouting match between liberals and conservatives and it tends to cloud the reality of what feminism is and isn't. On the conservative side it creates an atmosphere that makes feminists out to be man haters and out for their own self interests and breaking what the fundamentalists believe is taught from the bible in regards to marriage. The more ultra conservative one gets the more this is seen. On the flip side the liberal mindset is all about 'freedom' to do . You can have sex all you want and have abortions- it's your body. Have multiple sex partners if you want. Then there is also the part about being athiest or agnostic which tends to play a big role in it as well but it is really all a game of politics in the end, isn't it?
Finally, just as a side note to this if it applies at all- a few weeks ago I was following a feminist on twitter and she mentioned Elizabeth Taylor being a great role model for women. I told her that she is not, especially for someone who has been married some 8 times or more? That is not a role model for women. She went on to say that she is a role model because of the causes she takes up. This is A difference between liberal thought and conservative thought. Conservative thought starts in the home and branches out whereas liberal thoughts seems to stay outside of the home seeks to change everything in the name of progressive thought and 'freedom'. Sometimes this is good and other times it isn't so good. Same, with conersatives, sometimes it is good and other times it isn't so good.
JW
I don't think it's true that the liberal pov is about "freedom". I mean, once you have two people in a room one or both won't be free to do everything anymore, and every political philosophy is about "freedom" and what one is free and not free to do at any time.
DeleteI'd say it's about harm. Does something harm others ? Then you shouldn't be free to do it. Does it harm nobody ? Then you should be free to do it. Intermediate cases ? Ehh, liberal views differ. So liberals would say you can have all the sex you want - but only if it's consensual. So having sex outside marriage with your spouse's blessing ? A-OK. Nagging your spouse into having sex when they don't want to ? Not cool.
I don't know if I agree about the home/outside dichotomy either; issues like minimal education requirements and laws against spousal or child abuse are absolutely about the home and it's things liberals tend to be for, while conservatives are more for people's freedom to run their families as they please. I'd say liberals are less concerned about what people do in their own homes, but mostly because what people do in their own homes is less likely to hurt others by definition.