Dear John,
I have a simple-minded question for you. It’s about abstinence from premarital sex. How does this work? No, not the “How do I resist temptation and remain pure?” part. Let’s say that your purity is completely assured. You have quenched your sexual thoughts and desires, and you have not done any sexual experimentation. You are saving your first kiss for marriage. Then, the day of your wedding, you go home to bed with your new husband, and … suddenly and automatically everything works?
I ask because for most of my adolescent and adult life I have been living the purity dream. I suppressed most of my sexual urges. No dating, no fantasizing, no touching. I was more or less asexual, and almost completely clueless. Then I fell in love with a fine young man, and we fully intend to marry each other once our life circumstances settle down. The young man and I started doing the things that young couples tend to do, like holding hands, or an arm around the shoulders or waist, and…I could not handle it. The feelings I had were either so overwhelming and powerful I had to stop, or I felt completely and totally numb.
I have needed ongoing therapy to get over this, but it is clear that for the present, even if the young man and I did get married, the two of us would not be able to have a sex life. The act of marriage would not be able to overcome the years of sexual dysfunction that I have imposed on myself. The young man, God bless him, loves me and wants to marry me anyway, even if this never changes, and even if that means we can never have biological children together.
I feel betrayed, because I did everything I was told with regard to abstinence, and it led me to a place where I wasn’t able to cope with sex at all and feel so broken. Is this how abstinence is supposed to work? I can’t think of anyone I could ask other than you, John, who would listen to me and take me seriously and give me an honest answer. Bless you for just reading this and getting this far.
"I suppressed most of my sexual urges." YES. Hell yes, I did. "I was more or less asexual." YES. I didn't have a sexual thought, didn't have a sexual fantasy, didn't have a sex drive. I'd suppressed these things out of existence. Why? Because sexual fantasies were seen as adultery against my future husband. Because becoming attached to any one guy meant you risked giving part of your heart away and never getting it back. Because before marriage sexual experience of any sort, even physical contact like kissing, was dirty, depraved, and sinful. Easier to just push it all away. Easier to shut it off. Easier to become asexual. And I am being deadly serious here.
When I first started dating the young man who was to become my husband, I didn't have any sexual feelings toward him. No sexual fantasies. No sexual desires. None. When I told him this, he became concerned, very concerned. He insisted that this wasn't normal, but I had no way to know, nothing to measure it against.
After a few months, I did start having sexual fantasies. But they were all fantasies of non-consensual sex. Why? Because on some intuitive level that made them safer, less taboo, and less sinful. After all, in these fantasies, I didn't have a choice. I didn't have sexual agency. I wasn't choosing to have sex. I wasn't active. It wasn't that I wanted to fantasize about non-consensual sex; rather, as a result of the purity culture and my suppression of my sexuality, this was the only kind of sex I could fantasize about.
When my husband and I began having sex, we found that the only way I could orgasm was to pretend our sex was non-consensual. It was as though imagining and miming being coerced was the only way I could truly let go, detach from myself, and give myself permission to feel sexual pleasure. Being an active sexual agent, even in my thoughts, had been a no-no for so long that this suppression had become hard-wired into my brain. It literally took us years to figure out a way for me to have orgasms without pretending that our sex was non-consensual. I have nothing against people who simply enjoy this sort of sex play or this sort of fantasies, and I'm not saying it's bad. It's just that I really wanted to be able to experience orgasm without having to pretend sex was non-consensual.
It's been some years now, and things have gotten better. I can have orgasms without pretending our sex is non-consensual, and I now have sexual fantasies in which I am an active sexual agent. There are some things I'm still working on, because these sorts of thought patterns don't go away overnight, but I'm confident that I'm on the right path and have a bright sexual future.
How did this happen to me? It's simple, really. I spent the first twenty years of my life suppressing every sexual urge, thought, or desire. I literally became essentially asexual. Literally. My sexuality was dead, because I had killed it. I had sacrificed it on the alter of the purity culture in a desire to make myself pure and godly. And yet, I'd always been taught that once I was married I would experience carefree, romping, ecstatic, incredible sex the likes of which I could not imagine. There is a disconnect here. How is one supposed to go from being sexually suppressed and extinguished to being an active and fulfilled sexual being?
I was taught growing up that every sexual thought or desire outside of marriage is sin. Believing this, I spent twenty years working hard to keep from thinking about sex, and I succeeded. I was essentially asexual. And then, with my husband, I was suddenly supposed to think about sex. My mind rebelled. My indoctrination of my own brain had been all too successful. My sexual dysfunction was only natural.
There is so much that is problematic about the purity culture in which I was raised; it goes way beyond the creepiness of daddy/daughter purity balls, the problems of asking girls to find their value in the men in their lives, or the grief caused by asking girls to make promises before they are capable of truly understanding their meaning. And the more I read testimonials like this, the more I realize that I am not alone.
Wow. Thank you for being so open and honest about this. My man and I were just talking about this the other day, about the devastating effects of completely suppressing an aspect of yourself. Thankfully he is a kind and understanding lover, and he has helped me work through my dead numbness and now I am gloriously alive in that area. I'm so grateful to him and so angry for the lies that put us in such gutting predicaments with the men we love. Thank you for this. You are most definitely not alone.
ReplyDeleteIt was weird for me, because despite all that I was being told, I couldn't supress my sexuality. I was even in nouthetic (ie, anti-psychology) counseling for my fantasy life. I carried so much guilt with me. I later found out that I have an enormous hormonal imbalance that was causing my incredibly high libido...and I am so angry for the years I spent feeling guilty. As I think about future children, I want them to have a positive relationship with their bodies and its many treasures of pleasure.
ReplyDelete-Moira
(I'm a semi-regular commenter -- think "Neesha" backwards -- keeping this comment anonymous just so it doesn't "track" to me; I'm in job-applying mode, after all!)
ReplyDeleteA million times yes.
I'm odd, I suppose, because I discovered a series of novels (they're, technically, "romance" novels -- complete with sex scenes -- but more plot-driven than the average harlequin) when I in my very early twenties, and that started me on the path of developing at least an academic knowledge of how things actually happen. I've since done a bit more "research" (thank goodness for private use laptops!) and have found medical or health focused websites that describe things...But, had I not, I'd probably be in a similar situation as you were.
Based on that reading, I've figured out that the, um, first few times aren't necessarily comfy...And that's why I'm still "waiting" (at least until I'm in a relationship with the other person). Though I'm not so obsessed with being a virgin until my wedding night anymore...Once I realized that the "True Love Waits" and similar movements really set people up for either failure and guilt or shutting down the sexual aspect of oneself entirely, I stopped believing in the Mission Of Purity.
"But they were all fantasies of non-consensual sex. Why? Because on some intuitive level that made them safer, less taboo, and less sinful."
ReplyDeleteOh my gosh. thank you so much for writing this post. It described so much of my own expirience, but i never understood the connection between sexual repression and non-consensual sex fantasies.
again, thanks for writing this!!!
My ex-husband and I both "saved ourselves for marriage." Our sex life was a disaster, bordering on abusive. I sought advise from Christian friends and books and was always told the same thing-- that my body belonged to him, that I just needed to die to myself and seek to please him, and God would honor that. I tried for years to do just that, but all that I succeeded in doing was burying my sense of self so that I could shut off my brain during sex and just endure it. Then I would go into the bathroom and cry after my husband fell asleep. We sought counseling for this (and other major issues), and the "Christian sex therapist" kept asking me why I was so cold and passionless. She knew my husband had been abusive but thought I should have been over it by now. She chalked all our issues up to a difference in libidos and to me being selfish. Ugh.
ReplyDeleteEventually we got divorced. I started dating again, but I was terrified that something was wrong with me sexually. Then I met a wonderful man who treated me with kindness, respect, patience, and tenderness. Wouldn't you know, *I* wasn't the problem. Two things had to change: my partner and my expectations. (You have blogged about expectations and sex before-- great post!). Once I realized that no one was looking over my shoulder--not God, not the church, not my friends-- and that sexuality was a normal, natural part of being a human, I was able to let go and enjoy it. And with a little practice, it became amazing! I never thought it was possible after the years of enduring sex from an abusive partner.
I guess all that is to say is that healing is possible. It just takes time, patience, and a safe person who is willing to work on it with you.
I was often extremely guilt-ridden over my interest in sexual things as a kid - when a friend and I pretended (once) that our Barbie and Ken doll had "done it" before giving them a baby it bothered me for years. Growing up I would often read romance books on the sly, going to all sorts of lengths to hide it and have access to it, but feeling terribly "bad" for not controlling that. Maybe I'm luckier than those who were successful in deadening themselves, though. Nowadays if I want to read some erotica or something I have no guilt about it, though I did go through a period of the same type of fantasies the rest of you are describing - I really wanted to be pregnant but with no husband yet, I figured the only way to get pregnant and not get despised was by getting forced. Great way to raise your kids, huh - not!
ReplyDeleteI think I'm almost a normally healthy person now, but my younger sister thinks she might be asexual. She plans to try some things when she gets a boyfriend and see if she likes it or not, but maybe meanwhile I'll refer her here.
Whoa. This post really speaks to a lot of what I have seen and some of what I have experienced. The environment I grew up in was also obsessed about waiting until marriage but not so obsessed with not doing things like kissing. I remember having sexual fantasies from before the time that I knew what sex was (which I believe was at about the age of 11). I constantly had sexual thought from then on. I really thought that something was wrong with me and I never was able to suppress it like you did.
ReplyDeleteI also had fantasies of non-consensual acts although not exclusively. I've never before connected the two, but it's possible that it was for the same reason as you. These thoughts disturbed me greatly during my teens, but for the last few years I've figured that it's probably a pretty common thing to fantasize about. I can't believe I never thought of this before. It makes perfect sense now that you say it. I may have guilted myself into trying to avoid thinking about wanting sex. Of course, I then felt even more guilty and confused by what went on in my head.
Looking around me in college I saw a lot of women and some men who seemed like they had neutered themselves. Even when they weren't in relationships it seemed kind of sad. I know that I discussed the very idea that this letter writer talks about (although not to this extreme). A good friend of mine and I had both thought this separately and then agreed together that a person can't change their way of thinking about sex overnight. And since that overnight is literal in this case, problems will pop up.
I never experienced any sexual difficulties. I kind of always felt like I didn't want to be a part of the religion that I grew up in. I knew that there were many Christians who didn't think that it was necessarily a sin to have sex before marriage and I thought that I might be one of those kinds of Christians when I had the opportunity to choose my own religion. I had the sense to keep these thoughts to myself. I can't believe that people teach that sex will be better if you wait until you're married. I think that deep down, the people teaching this know that it isn't true or at least that it isn't true for everyone, but that's the only way that they can think of to convince people to follow their way of thinking.
As for the woman who wrote this letter, I hope she can get help for her problem. Even if she isn't able to, I don't see why she would be worried about not being able to have biological children. I think it's pretty easy to get semen where it is supposed to go without having sex or even being in the same room. I think that a couple could even do this on their own and not involve any medical professionals.
Wow. I wrote a whole lot. Clearly I need to go back to blogging myself.
The idea that there is some sort of "on/off" switch for human feelings and relationships, rather than a natural progression is completely bizarre.
ReplyDeleteMy family went through something like this with my sister and her boyfriend (now husband). They dated for about seven years, but my parents refused to treat him in any way like family until he and my sister became engaged. That meant no invitations to family events, and no gifts at birthdays or Christmas. So the instant he becomes engaged to my sister, his relationship with my parents is supposed to completely transform? I don't think so. They have been married for three years now, and have a child, and he is still so uncomfortable around my parents that he avoids seeing them. The last time I heard him talk to my dad, he sounded like he was interviewing for a job. It's just so uncomfortable all the time.
I'm blown away to see how many other women have the same experience as me. It is only in the last couple of years that I have been able to truly enjoy sex with my husband.
ReplyDeleteI wasn't raised in a conservative environment, but even my moderate Catholic upbringing painted sex as bad. Sex wasn't something you enjoyed or looked forward to, it was only really ever discussed as leading to children and being something you did in marriage. I remember, when I was 13, my mother making a very big deal of telling me how she saved herself for marriage. I missed the irony of the fact that she was now divorced and sleeping with her boyfriend. Even then, a healthy sexual relationship wasn't ever really modeled for me.
Mum broke up with her the same boyfriend when I was 18 and hasn't had a relationship since. I am now 32. It has only been in these last few years as I have developed a healthy relationship towards sex that I began to realise how odd that was. She declared that she never wanted another boyfriend after that. I realised that my mother would never have sex again after the age of 50. When I asked her about this, she was fine with it. No wonder I needed the non-consensual fantasies to orgasm.
I have been working really hard to just let myself go and enjoy sex and I only realised a couple of weeks ago that I hadn't used those fantasies to orgasm in a very long time. It was a fantastic feeling. Now I can open my eyes and truly be with my husband. It's fan-fucking-tastic. (Pardon the pun)
I'm going anonymous for this comment because I don't want the very personal information I'm posting to be publicly associated with my screen name.
ReplyDeleteI couldn't suppress my sexuality to the extent I was supposed to, and I now realize that that "failure" made it possible for me to have a healthy sexuality now. I thought that masturbation was a sin, and that sexual fantasy about real people was a sin. However, I had trouble resisting the temptation to masturbate, and I eventually experimented with objects. I first tried something that I thought was penis-sized but was actually a little smaller, and it wouldn't go in. I was able to successfully use an object that was much, much smaller, and gradually worked my way up from there.
Later, I discovered that my body's previous inability to handle a penis-sized object was actually a condition called vaginismus--which is often caused by sexual repression--and that, without knowing it, I had followed the prescribed treatment for vaginismus (penetration with vaginal dilators of gradually increasing size) successfully. I realized that if I hadn't broken the rule about not masturbating and had gotten married with no sexual experience, I would have been unable to have sex. And of course, if I hadn't read secular information about sexuality, I would probably never have even found out about vaginismus.
I abandoned my belief in not having premarital sex several years after abandoning my belief that masturbation was a sin, and I'm now in a very happy sexual relationship with my boyfriend. I now know that even if he and I were married, our current sex life would have been impossible if I had followed the conservative evangelical/fundamentalist rules about sex.
This is like an "It Gets Better" project for women from sex-negative backgrounds. Which is awesome.
ReplyDeleteI also dealt with vaginismus for about a year. Fortunately, my then-boyfriend (now husband) was patient and understanding and kind, even when he was frustrated. However, that didn't stop me from feeling broken and damaged and hopeless. I did talk through it therapy and I did use dialators, so I'm in a much better place now. But it was so scary and hard!!!
ReplyDeleteI struggled for years with both a libido that seemed out of control and way too high for a girl (based on what I'd been taught) and a complete lack of knowledge about sex (I thought the guy put it in and then they just sort of laid there). My parents didn't give me any info about the real mechanics of sex until I was 16, which was far too late.
ReplyDeleteWhen I was 19 I "fell into sexual sin" (aka a little exploration with my boyfriend) and was reprimanded by my parents' pastor and his wife about how horrible I was for causing my boyfriend to sin sexually. It was my fault because guys are designed to respond physically to sex but girls aren't and that it was only a perversion of the godless culture that made me want to have sex or to view men sexually. Yeah. That nearly killed my sex drive, almost ruined my relationship with a wonderful young man, and made me hate my body for having these urges.
Now I'm almost 22 and in a happy sexual relationship with said boyfriend (and myself. Masturbation is a great thing although it took me almost a year of practice before I could really let go and enjoy it). Our lives haven't fallen apart, I'm not pregnant or crippled by an std. We have great friends, do well in college, and still enjoy doing other things with each other besides having sex. In short, everything I was told seems to have been a lie.
Interesting about non-consensual fantasies. I know I definitely acted out those kinds of scenarios with my toys when I was younger as well as, I'm realizing, BDSM-type fantasies. Thankfully I'm more than happy and willing to have sex/think about sex without those thoughts or actions, but they are strong impulses I have.
I always experianced massive amounts of guilt because of my own sexuality. I am bi-sexual, and had sexual fantasies about both genders accompanied by masturbation from about age 11. I was convinced for years that my sex-drive was the result of demon-opression.
ReplyDeleteAt age 17 the thought of that being true was just too much to handle, and so I put the cause in the "too hard" basket, but soon after fell into a deep depression. By age 18 I decided I was broken, and just ignored the guilt that came with my sexuality.
At age 20, after I left my faith and my family, I had sexual intercourse with my partner, which took 6 weeks of patiance on his part because I felt horrible pain when I was being penetrated, despite the fact that I was by that point comfortable with my sexuality, we had done sexual things for a while now, and we have a very open and frank relationship.
Now thankfully, I really enjoy sex, even if I am unable to orgasm from it (but other stimulation takes care of that) and am grateful that I did have such a high-sex drive, since it led me to research things and also learn what worked for my body despite my upbringing.
I didn't grow up with anywhere near that kind of baggage (my mom wrote Harlequins) and it was still difficult to find myself sexually. To put it delicately, I've never had trouble climaxing on my own, but it took years to figure out how to do that with another person.
ReplyDeleteBecause of my own difficulties learning what worked and how to communicate that to a partner (hint: use your words), I have long suspected that people raised in the purity culture would have serious problems well beyond what I experienced. In this case, being proven right doesn't feel good at all.
Thanks for this post. It must have been a bit hard to write.
You don't have to come from a religious background in order to feel bad about sex. My family is completely atheist and I was never taught that sex was wrong, but I was taught that you shouldn't do it until you are older. The culture is still stuck in the dark ages. This is why comprehensive sex ed is so important. I learned most things from porn and talking with my friends. I felt bad as a child because from about the age of 4 I had sexual urges. I used to masturbate all the time, orgasm (though I didn't know what it was then) and then promptly feel horrible about my pleasure.
ReplyDeleteMy sister gave me the best advice I ever got when she left for school... Just do it. And so when the opportunity arose, I weighed the pros and cons, decided that nothing bad was going to happen, and "just did it".
I have non-consentual fantasies all the time... they are a guilty pleasure of mine. I think they stem from my adolescence and being attracted to, and paid attention by, older men. That is something I feel guilty about. I don't think I will ever stop. I felt bad for being the victim in the eyes of society, when really I had wanted it and would have been fine if it wasn't made into such a big deal.
Thank you for talking about this... all of you. I know I'm not quite right, I've gone from being hypersexual and doing it all the time with all the perceived wrong people, to not quite asexual and doing it once and a while. I have no drive... It feels like i'm coming down off a high... I hope it comes back because my boyfriend deserves more sex than I am currently giving him.
Another regular commentor going anonymous for this one. I was never quite able to surpress my sexuality as much as you were, but I felt immensely guilty for every time I "gave in" and masturbated. Eventually masterbation became almost a nervous habit, a way of dealing with the incredible amount of stress I was under living at home as a teen. I faked being confident sexually for several years of marriage, and lay awake after my husband had fallen asleep wondering when the sexual arousal and easy orgasms were going to arrive. The only way I could get to orgasm was to fantasize about girls, or BDSM/toture type scenarios, even though I had never had any type of sexual encounter with anyone but my husband, and had never seen porn of any kind. It was 5 years into our marriage before I could relax enough to orgasm from his touch instead of my own. Still working it all out, and it is not easy. The idea that sexual purity makes you a sexually healthy person in marriage is a myth and a lie. Thanks for writing about it.
ReplyDeleteI'm delighted to hear so many of you report, "I can only have an orgasm if...." YAY! That's a great place to start, considering how many women haven't even made it that far.
ReplyDeleteAlso, if none of you are in your 30's yet, well, hold your hat. Your sexual peak is gonna be a blast, especially since you're doing the groundwork to be healthy now.
I wanted to write about this for some time. Great work!
ReplyDeleteOMG, I now know where some of my issues comes from! Thank you!
ReplyDeleteAlthough I was definitely not a virgin when I married, I still have issues with disconnecting during sex. After I walked away from my fundie culture and decided to do it, it was like I had gone to the "bad side"--and any worry or issues of comfort or safety went out the window. I dated the bad boy, and then had some fun with other short term flings, none of them good or love-filled relationships. But it didn't matter, because I'd already done the bad deed, right?
But now that I'm married to a wonderful man (who was a virgin when he met me!) I'm having a hard time seeing sex as a good thing--and I too have the non-consensual fantasies. I never really put the pieces together that my repressed sexual upbringing would (could?) have caused that to happen.
I read that article earlier today, then came here and was delighted to see you had written about it as well! I have to agree with the other commenters that I've suddenly realized my teenage failure to be completely "pure," as I indulged in masturbation and nearly-constant fantasies, has actually set me up to be at a more developed place sexually now that I no longer care about "purity." I always felt guilty about not being able to control it, but now I'm thankful. Also, I feel so sorry for you and those like you who were perhaps stronger than me and were able to kill your sex drive completely. I have no sisters, but I know some girls a few years younger than me who could very likely have the same problems when they get married. Hopefully I will be able to be there for them.
ReplyDeleteThank you for writing this! You can add me to the tally of sexually repressed women who needed to fantasize about non-consensual sex to let loose and orgasm. I have often wondered how common this is, if it has to do with being raised in a sexually repressed home or if it actually fairly natural and most women do it. But I definitely agree that if it is the only way to climax, then something is wrong. It hastaken years for me to lose this dependency, and I am only just beginning to be able to enjoy sex purely for what it is.
ReplyDeleteI have been reading your blog for a while, but this is my first post. Thank you for being so honest and open about your journey. Your blog has been immensely helpful for me.
I'm the same anonymous who first posted about vagnismus. Another important negative effect that the struggle for sexual purity had on me was: From about ages 11-18, I had OCD that took the form of obsessive sexual thoughts. They weren't necessarily of things that I had any desire to do--they were images of people naked who I really didn't want to see naked, stuff like that.
ReplyDeleteI thought, initially, that this indicated a predisposition to sexual sin and that it means I should be even stricter about my own sexual purity. Imagine my surprise when, at age 19, I decided that masturbation wasn't a sin, and the OCD thoughts pretty much went away! I went on meds for OCD a couple of years before that, so they may have played a role as well, but I definitely think that reducing my fear of sex reduced my tendency towards OCD sexual thoughts.
Thanks for bringing this up. I was pretty repressed. My mom told me lots of times about how magic and sacred it was but never really gave me any information. I did go to public school In biology class as a freshman in high school, I got teased by some boys in my class because I got a 70% on an open book reproduction test and mislabled vagina. I still never understood my anatomy for a long time. The very first time I put anything "up there" I was 17 and going to be baptized again to reconfirm the commitment I made at the mature age of 7. I was supposed to wear a swimsuit under white clothes, and that morning, my period started. I had a box of tampons that I hadn't been brave enough to use yet. I spent 2 hours in my bathroom crying before I finally got it to work.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, I also never masturbated. I had thought that would make me a lesbian or a looser. Then, when I was 18, there was a guy (probably from Christian Patriarchy from how he explained his family) that I was doing non-intercourse sexual things with, because the lord had told me that he had sent him into my life to learn to be a submissive woman by doing things I didn't always want to do. (Yes-if I had good "christian discernment", I should have clued into the lack of purity and figured out that sometimes you should listen to crazy things imaginary friend God tells you, but sometimes you should recognize that the same voice is actually the devil trying to make you sin) He made me start masturbating because he was angry that something was wrong with me and I wasn't orgasming. I still feel like I have trouble from things starting this way for me. I can't help but think that if I had had my first time with a not-so-godly boyfriend who I actually wanted to be with, things would be better for me now.
My husband and I both waited until marriage for intercourse and I do wish we hadn't. Even having had other sexual experiences before, it was still awkward and unnatural and stressful to have a certain time when you were "supposed" to do it. I can't imagine what its like for super-purity girls who have to go straight from a first kiss to intercourse in a matter of hours.
Jenna
I didn't come from a fundamental/strict Christian family. My parents had waited till their wedding day and my mother always preached how precious it would be to wait till marriage. At 16 I met my now husband (I am 29). We followed our attractions and had sex a few weeks after we started dating. It was an amazing experience. Some year on, I went to a "spiritual healing" weekend for youngsters. Of course, one of the topics discussed was premarital sex. Following that weekend, I decided I was sinning and told my then boyfriend that we would have to wait till marriage. Those few weeks of abstinence were horrible. We would be kissing, feel aroused, and have to stop...feeling awkward and guilty. After a few weeks I decided this was going to make our very good relationship a total mess and decided to go back to sex. Didn't regret it - my relationship went on blissfully. Today we enjoy the same healthy (pleasurable) sex as we have since we were 16.
ReplyDeleteSo I can start to imagine just how damaging to your sex life being brought up in a purity culture (I wasn't) can be.
It would be interesting to hear a professional's diagnosis of each of the commenters. There seems to be a good amount of self diagnosis here. And a lot of blame being thrown around for individuals not having satisfying sexual experiences. Having the "perfect sexual intercourse experience" where each individual involved is satisfied, does take practice and maturity from each person. When I was young and sexually active, I would think how dreadful for a female to get pregnant on her first time of having sexual intercourse because truthfully it was more pain than pleasure for the female. True, anatomically, 11 months later, it would be possible for her to receive more pleasure than pain with intercourse.
ReplyDeleteLibby, a question I have with your experience is...with your having not been around guys for 18-20 (?) years how did you know if you were even sexually attracted to your boyfriend (now husband) rather than being asexual? I was around guys growing up in public school and there were guys I was good friends with but was not interestered in, at all, for touching. Then there were other guys I was acquainted with and I would have welcomed holding hands with or being kissed by. Does that make sense? Maybe another way to word it would be, how do you know if you pushed something with your boyfriend (husband) that wasn't an attraction to begin with, rather than being asexual as you diagnosed. I have no idea,of course, just a question.
Interesting post.
Brilliant post - i can relate hugely, and its helped me understand stuff that has puzzled me for a long time, great comments too - thank you so much for posting this x
ReplyDeleteAnonymous of 3:11 - I don't think anyone here was expecting sex to be perfect the first time, or expects it to always be perfect today. And I never said that everyone not raised in the purity culture has a healthy view toward sex (hell no!). All I did was discuss my experiences, and how being raised in the purity culture affected me, and that is all the other commenters have done.
ReplyDeleteAs for my husband, let me tell you, he is very handsome and I am very attracted to him today. When we first met and started dating, I thought he was handsome, but I wasn't sexually attracted to him, and that is what I was talking about. The thing is, I wasn't sexually attracted to ANYONE.
My college friends and I would watch movies, and they would say "man that actor is hot" and I would have no idea what they were talking about. When they found out that I didn't find the actor in question "hot," they started looking up pictures of actors they found attractive online and showing them to me, asking if I found them hot. Nope. Nope. Nope. Nope. Sorry, nada. It wasn't that I couldn't tell if a man was "handsome" or that I couldn't see a difference between a good looking guy and a slob, it was just that no man and no picture, no matter how purportedly handsome, could awaken sexual desire in me.
If you're wondering if I was actually a lesbian, women didn't make me feel that way either. Nothing did.
Today, I AM sexually attracted to hot actors, hot guys on the street, and my husband. Today I have sexual feelings and desires. Then, I just had a blank. Hopefully that answers your question.
Just a thought. It doesn't seem to me like people in this thread are self-diagnosing. Instead, they're trying to understand and describe for other people some very intimate and personal feelings (or lack thereof). Nobody's prescribing anything or making clinical statements.
ReplyDeleteIt would be interesting to hear stories from people for whom sex was amazing BEFORE they were married and then fizzled out to....nothing...after. Anyone who thinks "practicing" is going to prepare them for marriage is quite possibly in for a rude shock. It is documented that people are on their best behavior before marriage. Therefore, you have the person who will do stuff before marriage because they really dont want to be rejected but then put their foot down after they are married because now they don't have to do that anymore. Imagine if you've thoroughly vetted someone out sexually prior to marriage and then it still flops. Oops.
ReplyDeleteIt works both ways. It seems that open communication is probably way more key than anything else. I know plenty of people who waited and are very glad they did.
Personally, I grew up in an atheistic family and went right into that college culture that Libby so adores and I was devastated. I would fall in love with every guy I slept with and was then derisively put down by other women who said that if I was more "mature", I'd be able to have sex without bonding to men like they did. God designed sex for a particular purpose; that being to bond husband and wife together. After I became a Christian, I finally understood that I was not the one who had something wrong with me: it was those other girls who had hardened their hearts so much to be able to sleep around.
Sorry Libby, this isn't what you wanted to hear, but there are other viewpoints out there. The separation of sex from marriage has not been a good thing for our culture. Just ask the bazillion kids out there for whom growing up fatherless is pretty much the norm these days. Or the taxpayers who get pocket raped so that the government can be a father instead of the sperm donor who had his enjoyment, made promises, enjoyed his sexually liberated girlfriend and took off. After telling the woman that since she was making a "choice" to not abort, then its not his responsibility.
Yep, some good ideas there. And you're drinking the kool aid. Slurp slurp.
Hmmm, the last comment by an anonomous above this one - you've jumped from one extreme to the other - sex only in marriage to raging promiscuity and irresponsibility - there is a middle ground.
ReplyDeleteI was brought up christian and can forgive christianity for a lot of the damage it has done to me. On a day to day basis i dont feel angry or bitter towards it or christians. However, when i allow myself to think (which i try not to) about what it has done to me sexually - i must admit i struggle with anger and resentment. I've been married 10 years and i still cant get past the repression. I feel like i'm blocked forever and there is no cure for me. I tried therapy and it didnt work.
I was just wondering if Libby or anyone else with a similar experience could point me in the right direction for how they overcome the repression? Books, websites anything that might be of help.
My case is wierd cos in one sense i was ok sexually till i was about 18. Although riddled with guilt about sexual feelings i still was able to have them. Then i read a christian book for teenagers in which it said the physical aspect of masturbation was ok it what you did with your mind that effected whether it was right or wrong - the fantasies etc. So i systematically trained myself to be able to have an orgasm with no prior sexual feelings - a purely physical thing - no build up. I dont know how i did it but i did. Then, a while later (months? weeks? cant rememeber) i realised i missed those build up feelings and tried to have them again, thats when i realised i'd done the damage - i COULDNT have those build up feelings anymore no matter how much i wanted them. I've been the same way since, no matter what i try and i'm now 35.
So i have this wierd situation where i have no problem with orgasm just no build up feelings before - its so hard to explain - even the sex therapist didnt seem to really understand it properly - but it really is a problem which then triggers other physical issues - trust me to find a unique way of being dysfunctional! With all my heart i would love to go back in time and make sure i never read that book and took its message to heart in my quest to be close to god.
I know plenty of people who waited till marriage and don't have these kinds of issues. I think y'all are a bunch of victims blaming Christianity for your own issues. I had a roommate who was really into sex and when intoxicated, she'd tell anyone in shouting distance about her orgasmic difficulties. Some women just have problems. Take responsibility instead of blaming others
ReplyDelete@ the anonymus about me: What you are saying is basically the same someone could say about tobacco and lung cancer.
ReplyDeleteMedical professional and scientist in that research field know without a doubt that tobaco increases the chance of lung cancer (and more than other 20 types). Does that mean that all somkers have cancer? No (although if you give it time...) Does that mean people who don't smoke won't get lung cancer? No, in fact there's one type of lung cancer (just one and not the most agressive one) who is more prevalent in non-smokers.
What it does mean is that if you smoke you have a way higher chance of ending screwed up and it's definitely not good for health.
What you claim is the same as saying that we shouldn't blame smoking because people have lung cancer without smoking instead of acepting that smoking causes problesm but you can try to treat it.
Sorry for off-topic example :P Sometimes I think people don't think of psychological, contioned or behavioural stuff seriously because it isn't an "illness" per se.
Anon at 3:58 - I don't waiting itself is the problem at all. It's when parents keep their children in the dark about sexual facts for the sake of their "purity," and instill fear and/or misinformation about the workings of their bodies or the opposite sex that there is a problem. For instance the false dichotomy that guys only want one thing or that women only use sex to get emotional intimacy. Or the church over-emphasizing sexual sin over other kinds or stressing a kind of purity that is humanly impossible to attain, aka crushes are giving away your heart, kissing is sexual sin, etc.
ReplyDeleteNone of this is necessarily caused by saving sex fore marriage, but by vilifying natural feelings and perpetuating misinformation, both of which can be done just as easily by non-religious folk as religious folk. I will certainly encourage my own kids to wait, but not like my parents "encouraged" me which was through guilt and withholding information. I firmly believe that saving sex can be a positive experience, even though my own experience with those kind of teachings wasn't.
First anonymous up there: I think you could tip that logic right towards an argument FOR waiting till marriage. An awful lot of people get away with it. My thoughts are that its not so much about the individual as it is about society. Chief up there birth control can fail and either we diminish the importance of fathers and act like its no big deal for a kid to be raised with no father in the home OR we keep encouraging the murder of the young in the womb. One or the other or both is necessary to maintain a culture in which its perfectly OK to remove sexual activity from lifelong commitment. Sorry if that doesn't please you. It's reality. Get a vibrator.
ReplyDeleteI have also discovered one of two things happen with people who engage in premarital sex (I am considering people who sleep with a fiance before marriage as waiting till marriage. without realizing it, by saying this is the only acceptable place for premarital sex, they have actually reinforced the notion that sex only belongs in lifelong committed relationships, whether that sex occurs before or after the legal ceremony being a moot point)
Those two things being that either they break down emotionally, as I did, because they bond to people and when the relationship does not work out, they are left emotionally damaged. OR they learn to harden their heart so that doesn't happen. They inadvertently cheapen sex and while I'm not going to say that it ruins their marriage, I think the sex has lost some of its specialness, though,because all it is then to something that feels good that they are now "owed" from the person they are married to.
Which leads me right to the second anonymous up there. This is a major gripe I have with the way a lot of bibilical truths are presented in the church today. The church seems to have been influenced by the culture and feels now that they must use a "how will this benefit you" approach to encourage biblical behaviors. God says no sex before marriage. Like I said, I can certainly see the fallout in only a few generations out of our country falling away from biblical morality. Don't throw the "this has always happened but on the sneak" bit at me. Because what used to be an unusual situation is now the norm. I grew up in the seventies and I felt that if I wasn't out there "getting some" then there was something wrong with me.
There are some very good reasons for maintaining biblical morality as far as sex goes, but in an effort to convince people, the church has copped to individual self interest, even if it means presenting half truths and stuff that isn't quite documented. Ditto on abortion. It really doesn't matter if it causes breast cancer or not. It's still wrong. Christians should stick to that instead of dragging in questionable studies to try and convince people that if they do the right thing life will work and if they don't it will fall apart. Scripture actually says that rain will fall on the just and the unjust. That's life. It is patently unfair in many many ways. People sin blatantly and get away with it and there are people who do the right thing and pay the price. Personally, I like being able to look myself in the mirror in the morning.
Well, it looks like the "Sex is a big, evil monster that will eat you alive until you're married and then it turns into a beautiful fairy!" crowd is out in full force now.
ReplyDeleteI don't have time to say that much right now but I love how these people are shitting all over the very private, personal experience that Libby bravely shared with us and saying "dont' blame Christianity/purity culture for your problems"--and then turning right around and saying "I had sex before I was married and it destroyed me! Promiscuity culture is the cause of all my problems!"
Look ladies, what's true for you is not true for everyone else. The most important thing is to know your own mind, whatever that is, and to make major decisions about sex from a place of maturity and self-knowledge. The biggest problem that young women have, imo, is not having sex or not having sex, it's doing things just because some man (your father, your boyfriend, a hook-up, whatever) wants you to do them.
Pre-marital sex didn't work out for you? Well, its' worked out fine for me. I've had several sexual relationships end and it did not destroy me, I'm happy for the experiences, both sexual and non-sexual that I've had in them. One of my best friends is an ex. Of course I've had issues, but they haven't had to do with having sex. In fact, the worst things that have happened to me were in a relationship where there was no sex.
There, so now since that's been my experience and it was fine, I guess I have to go ahead and say that absolutely everybody should do what I did. One size fits all, after all!
Oh, and Anonymous 3:26--True Story: Not everyone's a Christian.
ReplyDeleteSex isn't evil. It just has its appropriate place and that place is marriage. So petticoat, if you got preg, what would you do, let the kid grow up without a dad or kill it???because the kid is the sacrifice for your personal pleasure.
ReplyDeleteRight there with you regarding the non-consensual fantasies. I've been married for 9 years (to a man who is VERY generous in the bedroom ;) and those kinds of thoughts STILL help me orgasm.
ReplyDeleteI had never made the connection, either, but I, too, was raised in the "save yourself for marriage" culture (although it was almost entirely from my church youth group, as my parents really didn't talk to me much about sex at all)...
I, too, started fantasizing before I even knew what sex was, and I, like some other commentors here, was unable to suppress my sexual urges- which led to a lot of fantasizing (basically all non-consensual scenarios) and a lot of self-touching and YEARS of bucket loads of guilt. I felt like I had this deep, dark, horrible secret. Even through college I thought I had some kind of wrong addiction to masturbation. (I didn't have any physical experiences with guys beyond hand-holding until I was in college.)
I think I *might* have a higher libido than some women but nothing *hugely* imbalanced in my physical sexuality....and thinking I might be different at all could be erroneous on my part.
And, because apparently I still have not quite escaped the clutches of the "purity culture," I found myself, as I was reading this post, feeling a little guilty about the fact that I couldn't/didn't suppress my sexuality during my teen years! Wow.
It's so refreshing to read that I am not an abnormality.
Thank you for this.
(P.S. My husband recommended I read this!)
Anonymous 6:20 - FYI, married people have unintended pregnancies too.
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 6:20--If I were to get pregnant now, there would be no chance of a child growing up without a father in his or her life. Just because I don't think that sex makes God angry until your married doesn't mean that I sleep with any old guy. I am quite selective about who I will have sex with and any man who got me pregnant would be a man who cares about me and would step up to his responsibility as a father, should I choose to carry the pregnancy to term.
ReplyDeleteBut if I were to get pregnant now? Yes, I would probably have an abortion. I am pro-choice. To me, as to many people, a first-trimester fetus is not the same thing as a baby. I love babies and I want to be a mother, just not right now. Lots of people are pro-choice and abortion is legal in this country, despite the best efforts of your buddies in the government.
Except the thing is, the likelihood of me getting pregnant is tiny. I use birth control. Which works pretty damn well.
You can call me a babykiller or a whore or whatever you want. I really don't care about the opinions of sex-shaming religious conservatives about my personal life. Keep on telling yourself that all women who don't wait until marriage are easily-manipulated messes or substance-abusing, self-hating sex fiends, or baby-hating witches, or whatever makes you feel more comfortable with your own choices and opinions. Plenty of us are doing just fine.
And...yeah
ReplyDelete"It is documented that people are on their best behavior before marriage. Therefore, you have the person who will do stuff before marriage because they really dont want to be rejected but then put their foot down after they are married because now they don't have to do that anymore."
Yes, the problem here is clearly pre-marital sex and not people feeling compelled to do sexual things that they're not comfortable with in order to "keep" a partner. That is a BAD IDEA and something that married people do as well, especially women, because we get it drilled into us at a young age that our purpose is to please men and that, without a man, we are nothing. The solution to this problem isn't waiting until marriage, it's teaching girls to respect themselves, know their own minds, bodies, and desires, and give them the tools to assert their needs, set their own boundaries, and have those things respected by the people they sleep with, whether they're married to them or not.
" I think y'all are a bunch of victims blaming Christianity for your own issues. I had a roommate who was really into sex and when intoxicated, she'd tell anyone in shouting distance about her orgasmic difficulties. Some women just have problems. Take responsibility instead of blaming others"
Um well yeah, having an orgasm when you're fall-down drunk is generally acknowledge to be rather difficult. And if it took alcohol to make her comfortable with having sex, then THAT was the problem, not pre-marital sex. This woman you are describing does not sound liberated, she sounds repressed--and using drugs to overcome her repression in a short-term, judgment-inhibiting way, which is the WRONG WAY. The women here are not "blaming others for their problems" they're blaming harmful ideas about women and sexuality. Good for them. And I think talking openly about it (which is extremely difficult) and working through IS taking responsibility!
If these things you are saying don't speak to sex-negative attitudes, I'm a monkey's uncle.
So you are saying that a willingness to kill your own child is pretty much a price you are willing to pay for your own pleasure. That pretty much says it all.
ReplyDeleteGod help our country. And yeah, I'll say it: you sicken me. The blood of many many children is on the hands of people like you who feel that being put in a situation where they must kill their baby is a reasonable price to pay for a little nookie.
We worship sex in this country. We act as if it is as essential as food and water and something that we are entitled to even if others have to suffer for it.
And plenty of women think that a man who isn't ready to make a commitment to her is "worthy" until the rubber hits the road and she actually IS pregnant and the guy takes flight.
Yeah, sex negative. The term people like you use to namecall anyone who thinks sex only belongs in marriage.
ReplyDeleteThe two are not mutually exclusive sweetheart.
"The two are not mutually exclusive sweetheart."
ReplyDeleteCertainly not! My parents are still happily in love and very attracted to each other after 28 years of marriage. Of course, they had sex with both each other and other people before they married. There goes your false dichotomy. I don't think you're sex-negative because you believe in saving sex for marriage, I think you are sex-negative because your attitudes towards sex are negative. Naming a thing for what it is is not "name-calling."
"And plenty of women think that a man who isn't ready to make a commitment to her is "worthy" until the rubber hits the road and she actually IS pregnant and the guy takes flight."
I am not "plenty of women," I am me. How do YOU know that your husband or anyone else's husband won't hit the road and leave you high and dry if things get rough some how? An illness, an unintended pregnancy, a congenitally disabled child, etc. You use your sense and judgment of character, that's how. That's all anyone has. I'm confident in mine, are you in yours?
As for your shrieking about baby-killing, I already explained that I do not think a few-week fetus is the same thing as a child. Here's the thing:" While "people like me" are usually willing to accept that your beliefs about abortion stem from a genuine concern for what you believe are children, you so-called "pro-lifers" (who bitch about paying taxes to fund programs that would help children who have actually been born and need food, care, and education) are often unwilling to accept that we do not see fetuses as children. No, you just imagine that we sit there rubbing our hands together going "Muahahahaha! Who cares about a baby's life, I want to get laid!" We see things in a fundamentally different way and our disagreement stems from a disagreement about what constitutes a person, not whether or not it is okay to kill people. I'm sorry you can't see that.
I can't speak for Libby, but I'm pretty sure she does not want the comment thread for this post devolving into an abortion war. And since she herself is outspokenly pro-choice in many places on this blog, I have to conclude that you are trolling. Save your vitriol for somebody who cares. I am comfortable with my beliefs. Have a nice night, now.
Sweetheart, you don't know me and you have NO idea what my actual ideas are about sex other than that I believe it is reserved for marriage.It is laughable that you would say that simply because I think of something else beyond my own physical pleasure (such as the possibility of having a choice between raising a father less child or murdering it or giving it up to someone else to raise) as a basis for decision making.
ReplyDeleteI have never dealt with sexual dysfunction in my life unless you count being crushed when someone left me after I had given that piece of my heart up. So there you go. You can stick your assumptions right on out the window.
Yes, of course I know I don't know for a fact that my husband will divorce me but that's a false argument. A commitment has been made. Like I said: people who reserve sex for relationships in which a lifelong commitment is made even if they refuse to use the word "marriage" actually reinforce the biblical sexual morality. If there is no commitment, then what the HELL is wrong with someone doing something that could result in a baby with someone who has not stated an intent to stay with mom and child forever? That is really messed up in my opinion. It shows a very callous disregard for the life that may result. You can say all you want with your words, but your actions say otherwise. And if you are thinking that a dad who is not in the home is the same thing as a mom and dad raising a kid together is the same thing: guess once again: it's not. What kind of commitment do these "boyfriends" have to any kids that might result? To pay for an abortion that's what most of them feel is being responsible. If the woman doesn't want to abort, a lot of guys figure that they've done their bit by offering and if she wants to keep it then it's HER responsibility if they have not made some form of commitment to spend their lives together. So your argument falls apart. If the man has committed to your for life you are essentially married even if there was no ceremony. If he has not, you are deluding yourself that even if the guy pays child support and visits regularly that the kid is still not getting screwed over. And what if the babydaddy moves??? There are so many reasons why God paired child raising and marriage together but clearly you are in denial of those. I could say the same: it worked out for you because you didn't get preg outside of wedlock (or if you did, you killed it) so your nice lofty liberal views haven't actually been put to the test and seen through to see how the product of a free love relationship actually grows up. And that's another thing: a lot of the quiverfullers are in fact people who grew up with atheistic parents who scoffed at the ideas of traditional family. And they instinctively knew that it was a lie and instead of reaching a more moderate view, they embraced the extreme. Been there myself.
ReplyDeleteThat is actually the reason I went absinant until marriage: I figured one of these days my luck would run out and I would be pregnant and it was wrong to put that on a kid. I grew up without a father because mine died and I thought it was damn selfish to continue on a path that might cause that for another. I also did not think it would be right to milk the government for what a second parent in the home would be providing. I think this is a factor (one factor, not the only one, but it's hard to ignore) in our countries economic woes. The economics of raising children simply work better with two parents than one unless one happens to be independently wealthy. Oh, I know you will point out the "stuff happens" bit but that is a false argument to say that because through no fault of their own some people wind up as single parents should give a green light to disregard that single parenthood has created some huge social issues in our country as a result of widespread fatherlessness.
You can justify baby murder all you two want, but it's still wrong. Don't drag in medical stuff because we all know those are only a miniscule number of abortions. Most abortions are about sexual freedom. A bumper sticker I saw last year says it best "Abortion: a baby;s life is the price you pay for sexual freedom" or something like that.
You people worship your crotches and your careers and you don't even see it. There is more to life than that and a lot of us have figured that out. Unfortunately the quiverfull people take things to a ridiculous extreme that is not biblical.
And maybe you are right. No purpose here. I should not cast my pearls before swine.
Sorry this is two parts. I got a weird error message.
Premarital sex does NOT equal automatic abortion. Ever heard of birth control? Ever heard of single parents who raise kick-ass kids??
ReplyDeleteAlso there are no guarantees in this life. Sure, a boyfriend might break your heart. Your husband might break your heart too, and I would wager that a divorce after years of trust and commitment is way more painful than a college boyfriend deciding to split up. Further, there are plenty of men who have been dumped, too.
The world is not black and white.
You make a lot assumptions about other women's lives anonymous. It makes you sound ignorant to nuances of individual people's lives.
ReplyDeleteI'm another woman who was taught purity above all else, and you can add me to the list of those with fantasies of non-consensual sexual behavior as a teen. I can remember having these fantasies as a 14 year old. It was so hammered into my head how awful it was to want sexual affection that I was ashamed to admit to myself that I felt attracted to the boys I saw from day to day.
To this day I have a huge problem communicating anything regarding sex with my husband. Making sex such a huge taboo that I was unable to mention it other than disparagingly about those other people who "gave away the milk for free" was extremely negative and limiting. When you create an atmosphere that shuts down all conversation and denies a whole aspect of your human life, you are setting up a habit that does not just shut off when someone tells you "I do".
Ever hear of failing birth control??? Ever hear of those single parents with kick ass kids being more the exception than the rule? It's certainly nothing to open the door for. And how selfish to be willing to do that to your child just so YOU can enjoy yourself. I grew up without a dad and it was NO picnic. My father died and those things can sometimes not be prevented, but why up the odds by playing baby roulette?
ReplyDeleteI think that your logic about a husband dumping you vs a boyfriend is poor. It has absolutely nothing to do with keeping sex to a relationship that is permanantly committed. Whether or not someone later breaks that commitment is not a green light to say just go ahead and have sex if you feel the right way towards a person. By the very nature of the boyfriend relationship, it is not permanent until a certain point. And if you are waiting for the sex until a commitment is made, then you have just reinforced the biblical notion that sex does not belong in a relationship where there is not commitment.
And there is something pathetic that one has to be taking risks to "prove" that they are "sex positive".
ReplyDeleteSeems to me the problem isn't about confining sex to marriage but about the generalized attitude towards it. Maybe the problem is the shaming about sexual thoughts or masturbation. But there is not a thing wrong with making a case for confining sex to lifelong committed relationships. On the other hand, even if the participants feel that they have "benefitted" from the experience, there is an awful lot of evidence that society has not and has in fact been harmed.
Wow, these comments make me so sad. I can't imagine going through life like that, it's just such a disgusting, misogynistic worldview that these churches take. They have no regard at all for women's lives as being valuable as anything other than brood mares and property for men. Makes me wonder what year they think it is, considering how so many of us have been able to realize our full potential and enjoy sex and relationships and all sorts of things they can't even imagine.
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry anyone is put through those horrors.
Anonymous who came here just to argue and name call - Seriously, take your argumentativeness elsewhere.
ReplyDeleteFirst, the blog owner, am an atheist, and I don't give a shit about "Biblical morality." That argument will NOT work on me - "Biblical morality," btw, included God-ordered genocides, and in the Old Testament, mandated that fathers own their daughters to the extent of having the ability to sell them. So you can keep your "Biblical morality" - I want no part in it.
Second, I've addressed this all elsewhere: in this post. It's about expectations - if you believe you're supposed to wait, and then you have sex, OF COURSE you're going to have problems, you've violated your values and beliefs! Similarly, if you expect your future spouse to wait, and then get there and find he/she hasn't, OF COURSE you're going to feel hurt and your relationship is going to have problems! However, if you DON'T believe you're supposed to wait, and don't believe your future spouse will either, NONE of these problems occur.
Finally, the issue I addressed here isn't whether you wait or not. I have no problem with people waiting until marriage to have sex. The problem I have is with the sexual repression, guilt, and shame that comes beforehand. If an individual doesn't have any of this, none of the shame or guilt or repression of their sexual thoughts and desires, then I imagine going from "zero to a hundred" on the wedding night probably won't be that difficult at all! I really don't care when someone starts having sex, but I DO think that the kind of sexual repression I put myself through is not healthy, and that was the point here.
Also, leave off calling any woman selfish for having sex before marriage and thus risking conceiving a child. I am pro-choice, and I believe in women's rights to control their own bodies, and I DO NOT believe that a first trimester fetus is a baby - and don't tell me that perspective will change when I experience my own (wanted) pregnancy, I've had one child already and I did NOT think or feel that it was a baby or a person during the first trimester. So the whole "baby killer" claim? Yeah, that falls way short for me. Take your argument elsewhere.
Well said Libby Ann. Trolls should be kicked out rater than fed. I think you concede a lot more than I would in your place. You are incredible to have that kind of patience.
ReplyDeletePersonally I wanted to point out that I don't understand how the fact that correctly used (sex-ed!) birth-control methods have an injcredibly incredibly low chance of failing so dismissing them in one line without explanation makes no sense to me... but I wonder if I'm feeding the troll myself.
Everybody tolerant up there (that's it, everybody except the person trolling), you make me believe the world is a better place to live by seeing this level of compassion and tolerance even when some of you have been inmersed in repressed extremist reiligious teachings.
An atheist that hates to login un to post XP
I think you missed my point Libby. I said that a lot of the emotional damage is variable but there ARE effects on society whether one likes it or not. Whether you believe that a first trimester fetus is a baby or not doesn't change that it is. Have you seen ultrasounds??? Or do you just tell yourself what you want to believe???
ReplyDeleteAnd btw, I was raised by atheists who were very pro abortion and I STILL felt guilty when I had sex. I felt guilty because I felt guilty as well. Because you know, I'd been raised to be so enlightened. The day I left for college my mother told me to go on the pill. It came off like if I wasn't getting some then there was something seriously wrong with me. I remember having a conversation with someone and saying "why do I feel guilty, it's not like I was raised Catholic or something?"
So I guess that doesn't fit into your tidy little theory. Some people have deadened their conscience. That explains a lot why people can have an abortion and say it was the best thing they ever did. That there is a cause effect guilt thing about wrongdoing isn't in the bible. Of course people can feel guilty and deny it to others and even deny it to themselves so much that they actually believe it. People are masters at self deception.
BTW< I am not quiverful. Although truthfully, I think a lot of people take stuff the wrong way. I facebook stalked Mary Pride's page and quite honestly, it appears that she is well adjusted as are her children. Her daughters are well educated and do not appear to be husband hunting beyond what you might expect of young women of their age. I really suspect she made some broad generalizations in reaction to the secular culture she came out of and what worked for her and then a bunch of people took it to extremes she never intended.
Regular reader, sometime-commenter, anonymous for privacy's sake:
ReplyDeleteI was raised in a sex-positive conservative family in a sex-negative conservative culture. I didn't fool around until I was about 21/22. I didn't get naked til about 25. I didn't have sex until 27 (with my current amazing boyfriend.) When I was 26 I got pregnant just from fooling around with an ex who would have married me (and asked multiple times, after this event) - no penetration, but enough fooling around to get pregnant.
I was absolutely devastated and terrified. I couldn't think of any way to tell my family, although I knew they'd still love me and help me. I was ashamed, embarrassed, guilty and broke. All I could think of was that NO ONE COULD EVER KNOW. I did it all totally, totally alone: I had a miscarriage followed by a medical abortion (not everything came out with the miscarriage.) It was the worst experience of my life.
But it was good in a way: I re-calibrated my pro-life/pro-choice views. I'm now staunchly pro-choice because I know what it feels like to have an unwanted pregnancy when you have no money, no one to talk to, and a dude you now realize you don't want to marry. Was it stupid for me to even fool around with him to begin with? Yes, probably. But in the realm of "fooling around"-- we hadn't even had sex!! I was a pregnant "virgin" (to use the term loosely.)
Every woman's experience is different. There are birth control methods that work with 99% effectiveness (I'm now a huge evangelist for the IUD.) But if I got pregnant with current bf? We'd have the baby. I don't want to go through another abortion scenario. And this is my point: no one WANTS to have an abortion. Abortions are painful, terrible experiences. But in a society where even a successful, intelligent woman like me, with a loyal dude and a supportive family, cannot imagine how to possibly have this child (financially, emotionally, etc.)? It's hard to see past abortion as the best choice in that situation. To truly be "pro-life", we need to fix that.
Distilling the argument to babykillers vs. Christians is not only oversimplification, but it's actually harmful. I am a Christian who has been through this experience and changed my views to be much more compassionate, empathetic, and nuanced. There is very little room for this viewpoint in the current pro-life vs. pro-choice paradigm.
And now to bring this all back to Libby's post: After this experience, I dropped my "pro-life" label, started reading about feminism, and met an amazing (feminist!) boy that I am absolutely going to marry. I dropped the sex-negative feelings from my growing-up culture (including the purity myth and abstinence teachings, along with the accompanying guilty feelings) the and nurtured the sex-positive teachings from my mom and best friends. I got reliable birth control (seriously, ladies, look into the IUD!) and my boyfriend and I started discussing exactly what we wanted in the bedroom -- hangups, culture, experiences, taboos, fears, yearnings, all of it. Libby is right: expectations matter. We expect communication, openness, loyalty and generosity from each other. I don't expect virginity, and he doesn't expect it from me. We are incredibly well-adjusted and happy and I owe some of that to my changed expectations.
I hope this story helps someone.
"So I guess that doesn't fit into your tidy little theory. "
ReplyDeleteAnonymous 12:50, this is Anonymous 1:11 again, and this is exactly my point. Theories are just theories. Every individual person has her own experience, influences, values, and beliefs. My story doesn't fit in a theory either, but I'm happier and better adjusted than I've ever been because of the lessons I learned from it. It's true that some people are "masters at self-deception" as you say, but people are often also very good at honest self-evaluation. Don't discount everyone who disagrees with you as self-deceived: we all fight our own battles.
Anonymous of 12:50 - Yes of course I have seen ultrasounds. Didn't you catch that I have myself been pregnant? I had ultrasounds. I know about fetal development and I've seen plenty of pictures. It's just that I believe that personhood is a result of higher brain function - i.e. it's your ability to think and have desires and dreams that make you a person. A body that is just laying there breathing but is brain dead is no longer a person. First trimester fetuses do NOT have higher level brain function (and in fact neither do second trimester fetuses for that matter), so I absolutely do not believe they have personhood. But I am completely confident that I'm not going to get anywhere with you on the pro-life / pro-choice issue, and I am not about to let this thread get hijacked into a debate on this issue. Just be aware that I spent over two decades of my life pro-life, and believe me, I heard ALL the arguments (it's pretty much my parents' number one issue, as it was mine, at the time).
ReplyDeleteAnd it sounds like you're saying premarital sex has negative effects on society. I disagree completely.
Libby Anne, this is Anonymous 1:11 again! Just wanted to say thank you (and to all the non-troll commenters too!) for being so open and honest in this discussion. These are important things that very few people talk about.
ReplyDeleteI'm male, and this mirrors my experience pretty well. I don't think I had it as bad, partly because I actually like kink. >.>; But yes, I ended up having the non-consensual fantasies at first because it seemed like the only way it could be okay.
ReplyDeleteMy girlfriend actually is asexual (as in, that's her orientation), and I remember kind of panicking about it because I wanted to have sex. As a male, it's harder (if not impossible) to suppress those feelings completely, so what I wanted was to be able to have them without guilting and hating myself for them. Fortunately that's been possible for me, even while respecting her orientation and wishes.
I would also like to suggest that, as you pointed out that there's nothing wrong with kink for people who actually like it, you should point out that there's nothing wrong with asexuality for people who actually are asexual. It's an act of violence to try to make a straight person an ace, sort of like how it is to try to make gay people straight. But some people really don't have these feelings or desires at all, and while I would have envied them while growing up in the purity culture they've got serious problems with societal acceptance and with finding a romantic partner in a "sex-positive" culture.
A couple of other things, including about the anonymous troll. >.>;
ReplyDeleteFirst, I think my experience as a male in the purity culture was unusual. It seemed like a lot of the guys around me didn't care about "church standards," and were okay with telling dirty jokes and being bullies / misogynists. I'm autistic and was homeschooled, and was probably clinically scrupulous (OCD-level concerned with "doing the right thing").
I hated being male, partly because I didn't want to be someone like the males around me and partly because I internalized all that stuff about "guys are perverts and only want one thing." But instead of realizing "Well, I'm not a pervert and I want more than one thing," I made reality conform to what I was taught, and felt awful and dirty whenever I gave in to sexual feelings. Hence the sexual dysfunction. Part of the reason I had non-consensual fantasies was because I didn't always want to give my consent, but it happened anyway.
Second, I think (and I'm pretty sure most people here already know) it's actually fundamentalist culture that's obsessed with sex. When I was purity-scrupulous I felt awful about porn, and kept sneaking looks at it online. Nowadays I'm okay with it, and I rarely even think about it.
It's like getting obsessed with food because you're starving yourself. And it's kind of pathetic. Seriously, I'm not a fan of Freudian psychology, but there's something very suggestive about giving boys a ring and a sword as part of their "manhood" ceremony. And don't forget, "the boy-become-man is like an oak of hardwood character"!
Maybe I will someday be fortunate enough to lean on another man's hardwood character, and rest beneath his canopy ~.^
Feathertail, it's interesting to hear a man's perspective on this. Thank you for sharing!
ReplyDeleteFeathertail, as someone with a lot of close male friends, I don't think you're experience as a man is as unusual as you think. Men are constantly being told, as you say, that they are pigs and louts who "only want one thing" and I think this is pretty confusing and crazy-making for men who don't conveniently fit into that stereotype--which is, of course, a lot of men because men are complex emotional beings who vary greatly in what they want. I think trying to square who they really are with who they are taught they're supposed to be manifests itself in a lot of ways for guys, and what you're talking about is one of them. Actually the way you describe yourself reminds me a lot of my first boyfriend, who was also a very morally serious person who cared a great deal about "doing the right thing" and really struggled with his own sexual feelings as a result because he felt that having them made him a pervert "like other guys" whom he didn't want to be anything like. (Who knows how many of those other guys were having their own struggles inside!) Purity culture is toxic for everyone, not just women. And the ideology of purity culture is, I believe, present to some degree in all areas of society. It's just most explicit among religious fundamentalists.
ReplyDeleteAnd that's why, Anonymous Troll, I'm not surprised that you felt sexual shame, despite being raised atheist. Nobody escapes in this culture and women get very contradictory messages. On the one hand, we're taught that sexual feelings are dirty and unfeminine and that if we want it we're "bad girls." On the other hand, we also get taught that if we're not sexually active, or at least sexually desired, we're not "cool." It's the classic double bind, which many feminist scholars have written about.
I'm very sorry that, instead of calling out and rejecting the negative cultural messages that clearly caused you so much misery when you were young, you wholly embraced one of them and are now wielding it as a weapon against other women--women who mostly came here to share sensitive information in a safe space.
Also, if birth control is "baby roulette," then a chicken sandwich is "salmonella roulette" and a ride in a car is "horrible, maiming wreck roulette." There are forms of birth control that, when used properly, make the chances of pregnancy vanishingly small. Of course, "perfect use" is different from "typical use" but we could seriously close the gap between those numbers if we had better sex ed in this country. As someone who works with teens, I am amazed at how few girls even understand how the pill works.
And all this stuff about how children who grow up with single parents or parents who are not together are doomed is BS. The only way a person could think this is through willful ignorance.
I was a Nursing student in the early 70's, not long after abortion became legal. One day during my clinical session at the hospital, my Nursing instructor pulled me aside. Without explaining, she led me to a patient's room and I wasn't sure what was happening. There were whispers, pulled curtains circling the bed, and noises coming from behind the curtains. We were late, it was over. My instructor quietly motioned for me to follow her. We went to the dirty utility room (each Nursing floor wing has a clean utility room and a dirty utilty room). It has been almost 40 years now and the picture of what I saw is quite clear in my mind today. What I saw was a perfectly formed, teeny tiny, unclothed human baby, laying motionless in an otherwise empty,round basin. The basin sat near the dirty linens,and garbage barrel, awaiting disposal.
ReplyDeletePrior to this experience, the only places I had heard abortion mentioned were in public high school health class (it was still illegal),and a college classmate's sister had gone out of country for a legal abortion. My parents didn't discuss it, and I wasn't involved in a church. It wasn't something that had affected me or my circle of close friends, personally.
But what I saw that day changed my life. I saw the after affects of a recent abortion. I saw a miniature dead human baby. A woman decided this little baby needed to die. So the baby was birthed and carried away in a basin to die in a hospital dirty utility room. (This was prior to abortion clinics).
I don't know exactly what an EEG would have evidenced on that particular baby's brain, prior to death. I imagine though the baby had a desire for warmth and possibly a desire for hunger, to be satisfied. But I know I saw a human baby that day, and it had been left alone in a dirty utility room to take it's last breaths.
It was a pivotal day for me, I then knew what I thought of abortion. Who knows the exact day a baby becomes a person if it isn't from conception? Yesterday she (baby)was not a person but tomorrow she will be a person? A mother to be, has the legal right to decide which day this baby graduates from being tissue to being a "real baby" or a "person"? I know I saw a real human baby that day and the baby had been left alone in a basin to die and later to be discarded. Baby was shoved aside, because she didn't matter and because a woman said to do so.
My nursing instructor didn't discuss her opinion of abortion that day. I am guessing it would have been illegal for her to do so. Just a couple years ago I read the same RN Professor's obituary. Interestingly, I read she had been raised in an orphanage. I know she was quite a lady, petite with a ready laugh and a spunky personality, and the best Nursing instructor I had.
Beverly
This is interesting to me as I've read about non-consensual fantasies and how common they actually are! It's sad to see tho that they are driven by repression for most of the women posting here. Whether or not you are all for waiting till marriage, it's a shame that youth are taught that sex is so shameful and evil and wrong. Then in a vain attempt to keep youth from sinning they are kept ignorant of sexuality and taught that masturbation is a sin.
ReplyDeleteThe story told by "Beverly" is an old canard that has been going around conservative Christian circles for probably decades. I first read it in a book about sexuality for evangelical teenagers about fifteen years ago. Passing it off as one's own experience is a deceptive, scummy way to try to shock people out of being pro-choice.
ReplyDeleteI very much respect the former-fundamentalists who step into the light. You are fabulous truth-tellers, and amazingly strong. I have also noticed how the Christian-androids are furious at you and make trolls and pests of themselves on your blogs.
ReplyDeleteAnon, speaking of Kool-Aid, wasn't that a Christian preacher who fed those people the prototypical KoolAid? I think YOU are the one still drinking that, aren't you?
Also, the patterns you describe here sound like Borderline Personality Disorder... another symptom of which is always trying to be the center of attention, which is what you are doing here. Physician, heal thyself. Take the log out of your own eye.
Beverly - Fetuses don't have higher brain function until sometime in the third trimester. Before the third trimester, they have no thoughts, desires, feelings, pain, nothing, and the movements they make are only reflexes.
ReplyDeleteAlso, second and third trimester abortions are generally performed only if the baby has a defect that would keep it from surviving or leading a good life, or if the life of the mother is in danger. Almost all abortions are performed in the first trimester, before the fetus resembles a "perfectly formed baby."
But like I said, this thread is NOT about abortion.
" kisekileia said...
ReplyDeleteThe story told by "Beverly" is an old canard that has been going around conservative Christian circles for probably decades. I first read it in a book about sexuality for evangelical teenagers about fifteen years ago. Passing it off as one's own experience is a deceptive, scummy way to try to shock people out of being pro-choice."
definition of canard--"a deliberately misleading fabrication"
I don't know how you could have read of my experience 15 years ago, this is the first time I wrote of my experience. I wasn't in a "conservative Christian circle." I hadn't even told of my experience except to my husband and a couple of close friends. I was young at the time and had not formed my opinion of abortion before that experience. My personal experience was not fabricated, in any way.
Beverly
Maybe the reason your story sounds so familiar Beverly, is because a lot of people have had that same experience or a similar one.
ReplyDeleteI think OKing abortion in any type of scenario other than a medical one (which sort of becomes a triage/priority thing, which as a nurse, you understand) requires an incredible amount of denial.
As for Petticoat chick up there: yeah, you gotta tell yourself that I felt guilt because of "negative messages to women". I would have felt guilt if I was a man. I did not feel guilt about fantasizing or other things. I felt guilt about engaging in sex with someone who was not my husband. Because I think on some level I knew it was wrong. Trust me, I had other girls lecturing at me that I was just so backwards to feel guilt like that and blah blah blah, I should just enjoy myself. I even had someone tell me that I would not find a man to marry if I wasn't willing to put out before marriage. I also find it interesting that just as so many of these former quiverfull women are rebelling against everything conservative and Christian, that the ranks of the original quiverfulls were filled with women who raised as Godless feminists. It will be quite interesting to see how this next generation turns out. And how many of them sympathize with their grandparents in the end. Because I have noticed that generations go to extremes until someone stops the extremity. And Libby may not think so, but she is as extreme as the quiverful culture that spawned her, only in another direction. My husband has a saying that 180 degrees of sick is still sick. And I think that's pretty accurate.
And are you really that stupid to think that because a certain number of single moms rise to the occasion in a less than ideal situation that it is something to be that cavalier about??? I seriously doubt you apply the same logic to other situations where people use the 'I turned out fine" argument. Unless of course it suits your agenda.
BTW, I knew people in college who used that food poisoning argument to justify driving under the influence. They and most of the folks they knew had gotten away with it quite a bit and hey, life is full of risks, so why not. I also knew people who continued to use this argument when the first evidence came in that serious sunning was related to skin cancer. Hey, I could get salmonella and most people that go tanning don't get cancer so it's just part of being wiling to accept risks in life.
ReplyDeleteWhatever.
of course without some kind of external moral compass, acceptable risks are whatever you want them to be and whatever you tell yourself is OK.
Oh, and Daisy: trust me, I don't have BPD. I know what it is because I was a psychology major and I have been around more than a few genuinely bpd personalities. You might want to learn a little more about it. By your definition, Libby qualifies or she wouldn"t have her own little blog where she can grandstand about her own opinions. Ditto on yourself (yeah, I looked at your blog. And it tried to install a virus on my computer. That's not nice at all)
ReplyDeleteI do not cut myself, threaten to commit suicide or go into a bionic meltdown if people ignore me. I really suggest you study psychology more if you are going to fling out armchair diagnoses to people online whose opinions you don't like.
As for Jim Jones: actually, he was a communist and he planned to infiltrate the church with his beliefs. (at least according to Wikipedia. Which yes, I know isn't the best source, but I wanted to do a brief fact check) So I'd say based on your own statements, Midd Daisy, that you're just a bit closer to Jim Jones than any Orthodox Christian.
I gotta say, the horrible logic here has actually made me more sure of my Christian beliefs than ever.
ReplyDeleteYeah, don't know what I am doing here and yeah, I should let my incredulous thoughts just stay inside my head instead of throwing them out to be twisted, misunderstood and mocked
It's all about you, isn't it, Anonymous Troll--YOU felt bad about having sex without being married so therefore having sex before marriage is wrong for everyone. YOU had a hard time growing up in a single parent family so therefore single parent families are bad for everyone (except a few outliers who should be discounted). YOUR personal angst is the Universal Human Condition and your choices are prescriptive for the entire world. Do you realize how narcissistic and frankly childish this sounds?
ReplyDeleteLook, I'm sorry your early sexual experience was so painful. I don't know why it was becuase i wasn't there. Maybe you, like many young women, had really crappy instincts about men and made some painful mistakes that were scarring, or maybe you're just not wired to be a person that can be comfortable with sexual intimacy outside of marriage. Maybe there really is no way you could have slept with a man who was not your husband and not felt uncomfortable with it, no matter how kind and trustworthy that man was. (And yes, despite the low opinion you seem to hold of most men, there are plenty of kind and trustworthy men out there.) And THAT IS FINE! Nobody should do things that they are uncomfortable with, especially when it comes to sex. Sex before marriage was clearly the wrong path for you, and the young women you knew in college (who clearly left you with a serious chip on your shoulder, given how many times you've brought them up) were wrong to peer pressure you and shame you for making different choices from their own. You didn't feel bad about having sex because non-marital sex is objectively morally wrong, you felt bad about having sex because non-marital sex is not for you. No wonder it made you feel icky! That's how sex that you're not really comfortable with makes you feel!
Except shaming women for making different choices from you is exactly what you are trying to do now. Instead of recognizing that there is more than one right way in this world, and realizing that those women were wrong for not realizing that, you've instead decided that there IS only one right way, it just happens to be yours, not theirs. You're so unable to process the idea that non-marital sex might NOT result in emotional pain for some women that you have to come up with some ridiculous argument for why it is some how detrimental to society for me to have protected sex with my boyfriend. Instead of simply recognizing that those feelings of ickiness you had were your own mind telling you that you were doing something that wasn't right for you, you have elevated them to some kind of proof that you are morally superior to the vast majority of other people--you've even found religious teachings to back up your defensive self-righteousness. Really, it's quite a fortress you've built for yourself.
And how on God's green earth is Libby "extreme?" Because she said that she thinks hammering the idea that being a sexual being is dirty and "impure" into girls' pscyhes from birth often results in women having difficulties with sexual intimacy as adults? Because she thinks that having sex before marriage is okay? Because she supports a woman's right to choose to have an abortion? If these views are "extreme" to you, you need to get out more.
As for this: "And are you really that stupid to think that because a certain number of single moms rise to the occasion in a less than ideal situation that it is something to be that cavalier about???"
ReplyDeleteNo, of course it's not something to be cavalier about. My point is that many if not most people grow up in less-than-ideal situations and there are a whole lot of things that can make a family situation less than ideal. But single parenthood is the only one that conservatives like to use as a stick to beat people with, and that just doesn't make much sense to me. I know as many people who suffered from their parents being together (in a bad marriage) as I know people who suffered from their parents being apart. But most of these people in both categories turn out fine. The key is knowing you are loved and cared for, even if you're family isn't the Cleavers.
An absentee dead-beat parent is obviously a shame but dead-beat parents are not caused by pre-marital sex. There are dead-beat dads who were (or are) married to their children's mothers and there are loving, engaged dads who are not with their children's mothers any more (a good friend of mine is one of those). If we want fewer guys knocking up women and skipping town, we need to educate people about birth control, make it widely available, give girls the emotional tools to make wise choices about partners, and teach boys that parenting is a man's job too.
I never felt guilt about having sex outside of a relationship. Am I somehow broken because of that?
ReplyDelete"I do not cut myself, threaten to commit suicide or go into a bionic meltdown if people ignore me. I really suggest you study psychology more if you are going to fling out armchair diagnoses to people online whose opinions you don't like. "
Those are not the hallmarks of BPD. BPD is about being emotionally sensitive to a very high degree and having an inability to return to baseline quickly.
Either way anon, you are ranting and raving and your anecdotal evidence does not back up my own anecdotal evidence, so whose is right?
And...yeah. People can have an "external moral compass" without being conservative Christians. Conservative Christianity is not the source of all morality and, in fact, most conservative Christian morality is pretty goddamn immoral, as far as I'm concerned.
ReplyDeleteWhen are you folks gonna learn that you don't have the monopoly on morality?
"When are you folks gonna learn that you don't have the monopoly on morality? "
ReplyDeleteI had someone tell me on a forum the other day that Christianity has the best morals out of all other religions and that only religion can instill morality.
My head is still spinning over that one...
Ex-Christian, male, happily married but just as happily bisexual. I hope I don't step on any toes, I'm still kind of new to feminism.
ReplyDeleteWhen I first read this article I was stunned. I was all "HOLY S*** this happens to girls too???" Except I was never much good at repression, only the self-loathing that came after 'giving in to my sinful desires.' But I think it's the other end of the same animal.
I was raised very conservatively in a Christian home. Though I had feelings for both genders since a young age, I never so much as masturbated until I was almost 15. When I was caught, our pastor was called to my house (and room) and staged a mini-inquisition full of shame and condemnation. After that was all over I was sure of 2 things: I still had all the sexual urges I'd had since I was much younger, and now I knew that they were sinful and made me dirty both inside and out (thanks a ton, "Holy Bible").
Since I couldn't stop these thoughts and feelings, I couldn't be "good" anymore, or feel good about myself or who I was (which is hard enough when you're an acne-riddled 14-year-old). I sure as hell wasn't going to talk about it with adults (one 'divine intervention' was bad enough) or my peers ("Hey fellow male students, do any of you get turned on by watching dudes? No? Just checking."), I became convinced I was a horrible person, and I should be punished for it. And if no one else knew about my feelings but me, well, then I would have to punish myself.
I started sub-consciously sabotaging myself, first in my school performance, but over time my it bled into every other aspect of my life and relationships. When I became sexually active, I could enjoy the act, but hated myself afterwards, feeling like sex was this big sinful drug for me, and I was this addict that God wasn't curing no matter how hard I begged him to because I was so worthless. I sought christian counseling which essentially told me to just try harder to not think dirty thoughts, and to save it all for the marriage bed. (Also, these wonderful people lumped me in with a whole bunch of other sexually dysfunctional men including incestuous fathers, which gave me the additional dread that not only was I a pervert, but also I was probably doomed to molest my children if I eventually had any.)
Well what else could I do except obsess about getting married? I still clung to the idea that marriage would fix everything and suddenly God would love me and I wouldn't hate myself.
After dropping out of college, I did get married to a wonderful woman (who had grown up in the purity culture as well and brought her own issues to the table, wheeee). I'm sure this comes as a TOTAL SHOCK TO EVERYONE, but I couldn't shake the self-hate I'd held for so long. The damning certainty that there couldn't be a problem with Christianity, because God was perfect and the Bible was perfect, so therefore the problem was me. The friction it created almost ruined our marriage.
Eventually we learned to honestly communicate what we wanted from each other, both sexually and emotionally, and things got so much healthier. Not because we were married, but because we learned to communicate with each other, and someone loved me enough to patiently and repeatedly tell me that I wasn't horrible or worthless. Someday I may even believe it.
It was hard to write this, but I thought my story might help or affirm some of you the way your stories helped me. Thank you, all of you who shared from your pasts. Every little bit helps me know that I'm not abnormal, and I most definitely did NOT deserve what happened to me in the name of holiness and the Purity Cult(ure).
I stumbled accross your blog and have been reading it for several days now. As a young woman growing up in the world's most secular society (Sweden),our childhood experiences could not be more different. However, I too have experienced some sexual repression. I think a lot of people do, this stuff isn't easy to figure out. I can only imagine how much worse it would be if I had been taught to view sex as a moral issue rather than a personal one (of course, it becomes a moral issue if you go about it in a way that is harmful to other people, but that's true for everything).
ReplyDeleteAny way. hav you seen this? It's fromthe excellent film "The white ribbon" by Haneke.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4GU3TpnZopA&feature=related
First time reading, first time commenting. Was referred here by a post on Dan Savage's column (in the comments section heh). I'd just like to say that, even though I don't really have any sexual problems, I too grew up in a Christian place. I have more issues with religion than sex, since I chose Wicca but had lovely parents who taught me sex was natural.
ReplyDeleteTo Anon Troll, you can actually have pre- or non-marital sex with 0% risk of pregnancy. When my boyfriend uses my vibrator on me or his hands or his tongue, there's no semen involved. Add the fact that I'm on the Pill as well, and we use condoms on top of that, I really don't think you can use the "Oh someone think of the children!" excuse. Hell, if it wasn't so difficult in this Christian society I would get sterilized. I've had sex with people not in a committed relationship, and it's not because I've hardened my heart, but because I recognize that love is endless. Haven't had a single problem with it.
Anyway, I mostly just wanted to say how proud I am of all of you. Facing emotional hurdles is really hard, especially with assholes making it harder.
@above, I got here through Dan Savage's comments section too.
ReplyDeleteI'll definitely keep coming back - love this blog already!
@Troll, it sounds like you felt pressured to have sex when younger in a way that really did not jibe with your natural inclinations. I'm sorry for that. I don't think anyone here thinks that people who aren't naturally into casual sex should be badgered into having casual sex. That type of pressure comes from cultural forces that can be just as disrespectful of individual happiness as the purity culture is. There should be room for people of all inclinations, from those who want to be celibate to those who want orgies every night of the week.
Although it wasn't their place to badger you, it's not your place to assume that the girls you knew were "deadening" themselves to their actual feelings about sex. Some women have casual partners because they feel somehow socially obligated to do so, which should not be the case (just as others refrain from having casual partners they want out of social obligation). But plenty of women who have non-committed sex actually enjoy it and don't get attached. Not all women are built to bond with all of their partners that easily, just as not all men are built to want casual sex with any attractive woman who offers (surprise).
"There should be room for people of all inclinations, from those who want to be celibate to those who want orgies every night of the week."
ReplyDeleteThis is something I figured out when I was about 27 - it is so true! We aren't all the same! How freeing!
To Anonymous at 6:20. You know what? Kids who grow up without fathers aren't automatically broken. (And kids who grow up with fathers - what about all the abusive dads out there?) I consider myself extremely lucky that my parents are still together after 41 years (go them!); but I know any number of adult friends who aren't so psychologically well because they watched dad beating mum up every time he was drunk; or who got emotionally caught in the middle when their parents divorced and used the child to hurt either other emotionally; or one or both parents didn't really want children in general / a child of that gender / the late child that was an accident just before menopause. Having one loving parental figure is important, having two is probably even better, but having those two parents be one man and one woman, and both the biological parents of the child... seems to me so much less important than the love and commitment to raising them. There are plenty of stories of grandparents (or aunts and uncles) raising the kids, wonderful step-parents, happy adoptions (to say nothing of gay couples, which I imagine may not be so popular a subject here :) )
ReplyDeleteI am happy I was taught to remain pure til marriage and have never regretted that decision.
ReplyDeleteGood for you. Have a cookie. Though I'm sure it pales to the sweet taste of self satisfaction.
ReplyDeleteReading this blog with great interest and not just this post. I was not raised Fundamentalist, but marginally Episcopalian. I never had much of a concept of original sin or sinning.
ReplyDeleteI find it sad that not having sex before marriage is somehow considered being "pure." Pure from what?
Wow, it is amazingly comforting to know that I'm not alone. I am a victim of the purity culture as well.
ReplyDeleteI can't even begin to describe how I feel about sex. I was raised to think of it as disgusting and only for your husband, forbidden to fantasize or masturbate, and I just kind of shut myself down in that way. I was asexual. I obsessed over romantic love, "prince charming," and weddings as a result, to an unhealthy extent in order to compensate. Then when I was 18 I fell in love (I'm still with him 3 years later). We began to get physical with each other, and then my dysfunction and it's extent was revealed. I am extremely paranoid whenever we intimately touch each other, afraid that we will be "caught," by who I do not know. This is sometimes to the point where I can't even enjoy myself. I can be very frigid, not showing much physical arousal. I feel horrible, because I really do find him handsome and sexy, it's just like my body shuts down. I rarely, if ever, initiate. And the worst of it is that I literally can't have sex. I have vaginismus, and being a poor college student who still lives with her conservative parents, I have no way of getting treatment at the moment. The fact that my boyfriend is still with me and loves me is amazing. Even still, this dysfunction is slowly eating away at my life, and I really hope that this whole purity culture dies because it ruined me. I feel broken, like I will never be a whole person again :'(
Last anonymous, you can self-treat vagnismus with objects that are sanitary enough for the purpose--you don't have to buy dilators. The trick is to start with something that your body is comfortable with, even if it's the size of a pinky finger, and then gradually increase the size of object without ever getting to the point where it's painful or impossible. Maybe, for now, just try to get to the point where you can wear tampons, and then move on to one of your boyfriend's fingers. Small steps can work.
ReplyDeleteNew commenter here...
ReplyDeleteI was also raised to never, ever talk about or think about sex. I think the thing that saved me all kinds of trouble was maintaining non-fundamentalist friendships (for the sake of "lifestyle evangelism", of course) which allowed me to observe a wide range of sexual relationships and thus avoid many common mistakes. As a teen I was so blissfully ignorant of sexual feelings that I expressed them in other ways, never knowing I was sexually frustrated - I was an exceptionally physical, energetic, and aggressive female. I was also terrified of males, having been indoctrinated with the "men only want one thing" meme from the time my parents split when I was 9.
I was so very, very lucky that I met my husband right at the time I began to have a serious break with my Pentecostal church. Our physical relationship built slowly as I began to care less and less about the church's rules. We finally had intercourse about two months before our wedding. Our relationship is very good and very healthy, built on mutual love and respect. I wish the same for those who have been more scarred by purity culture than I am. If I knew the secret to my success I would share it.
@ Anonymous Troll: Boy, do I sense a lot of anger! Perhaps you could direct it somewhere other than to a place where people come to discover themselves and to heal...It was people JUST LIKE YOU that caused me to flee as fast as I could from the fundamentalist teachings that vilified sex. I get the impression that you were taught that a woman should be a whore in the bedroom and a "lady" outside of it....typical BS spewed forth by sex-crazed preachers on thrones of their own making. I applaud ANYONE who finds their true comfort zone with sexuality, regardless of what form it takes. Who am I to judge what another person does? Who are you to do the same? I have fought with my own demons my whole life. My mother handed me to her father at two years old, knowing that he would "get off" between my little two year old legs. My father sexually abused me. My brothers, my uncles, my step-foster brother-in-law, and my foster fathers. Did I encourage or deserve any of that? NO. But I have learned throughout the years that IT WAS NOT MY FAULT! It was theirs! Regardless, because these actions led me to believe that sex and sexual contact was "love," I have suffered for years trying to understand what real love is, and have given myself to men for the sheer enjoyment of the act, and also for the commitment of love. All attempts have failed. I enjoy physical closeness, but find it more and more difficult to enjoy the act of sex. To me, it's just a stress reliever. If I get too much anxiety, anger or whatever, there's nothing like a quick jolt to the hormones to change my attitude. Please, just accept people the way they are and STOP trying to change everyone. You just make yourself look stupid.
ReplyDeleteI may be a bit late to the party here, but I thought I'd weigh in on the vaginismus thing.
ReplyDeleteWhen I saw someone about it (she described the series of dilators as "old-fashioned", back in 1996) she also taught me a trick, based on the principle that you can't pull a door shut at the same time as deliberately pushing it open.
When attempting penetration, push downwards with the relevant muscles (I'm not describing it very well, I know sorry). It feels totally wrong to start with, but it really is like pushing open a door.
Also, for the first few times at least, be on top and in charge (oh, how easy to say). You may have to wriggle about to get the right position - even now I sometimes feel as if there's a bone in the way!
(I only got the minor form of keep-it-till-marriage. I think in my case it was psykerlogical and probably to do with getting a younger sibling when nearly 3.)
- julie paradox
Great post and comments.
ReplyDeleteAs an individual who is both sexually-driven and spiritually-minded, it seems like a good approach to most things in life is one that's balanced, compassionate, broad-minded and humanitarian. Extreme atheism/feminism is just as violent as any other ideology (religious or not).
On a personal note, I think the saddest part about this whole post (in the comments section) is the part where it's ardently expressed that "a baby is not a baby during the first trimester." It is a rational statement to make from a purely scientific point of view, and it is troubling that the concept of a human life can be rationalized to such a point.
I say this from a humanitarian point-of-view. This sort of thinking allows individuals to shirk responsibility for the consequences of their actions ("I'm pro-choice / I believe in equal rights / I don't need to care about this unwanted pregnancy, so I'm just going to abort it since it's not murder in the first trimester"). It allows for selfishness and self-centeredness to pass of as "freedom of choice."
I'm not saying this is Libby's perspective, or that everyone who decides on an abortion shares this perspective. But I can understand the people who are pro-life.
I was born/raised Catholic, never repressed my sexual desires (even though it was generally "encouraged" by catechists, etc), and I'm perhaps somewhat of a "scandalous moralist" right now at age 25 (female).
I don't support Christianity/a purity culture when it's used to control others into submission. After a few years "out in the wild" (mentally/religiously), I realize it's just as bad to have no moral compass to society (i.e. post-modern society sees the triumph of materialism + science over spirituality + social values).
Just my $0.02.
-- an author/artist/non-conformist
I'd like to ditto what James Ratcliffe said; similar journey here, except I'm still a Christian.
ReplyDeleteSomething I've always hated about the purity culture is how it explains away one of the books of the Bible which is essentially a piece of pre-Hellenic erotic literature (the Song of Songs). It's generally explained away as being an allegory of Christ desires for the Church (which is both disturbing and perverse to think about), and the historical record of it as being about pre-marital and inter-racial eroticism is steadfastly ignored.
Wow. This is such a relief to read, I thought I was alone in my non-consensual sexual fantasies!
ReplyDeleteI've grown up in purity/Christian culture and have felt the effects of guilt for feeling things and having thoughts that a "good Christian girl shouldn't have." I reverted to rape fantasies to ease my guilt, and became addicted to them. To make matters worse, when I was a child I was sexually abused, so as a result, now I can only feel "safe" when I'm with an imaginary man strictly in my control. I'm so hungry for a real relationship with a real man, but I'm afraid I'm never going to be able to date now because of the crushing guilt and fear that I've dealt with for most of my life.
I went to a therapist who specialized in sex abuse victims, but she was no help to me. I knew she wasn't a christian, so I felt like I couldn't open up to her as much, afraid she'd think I was just a sad little girl manipulated by the big nasty Christian culture. I believe in God, and I believe he thinks that a lot of the "Christian culture" is pretty dumb too.
It really is a comfort to read this and see all of these responses, it makes me feel like there's hope!